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World Heritage Dream List

 
 
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Author Khuft
Partaker
#76 | Posted: 12 Nov 2021 11:29 | Edited by: Khuft 
Jonas Bergmann:
Explanation: Ford River Rouge Complex is mentioned (and the obvious choice at the first glance) if it comes to automobile plants. But I have the feeling that authenticity is missing strongly. Therefore I have the tendency to take Volkswagen plant at Wolfsburg instead: At least a lot of the facades/original workshops existing, industrial (urban) planning, Nazi-Architecture (imo missing in general till now). Negative: Modern soccer stadium next to it (Greetings to L-Pool).

Difficult to judge which one is more "authentic" without having visited them, but I get the feeling that River Rouge is more "important" as it seems to have been the first car factory to implement a fully vertically integrated process (according to Wikipedia...), ie. from raw material (iron ore etc) to the finished auto parts. It's also older than Volkswagen.

Did you consider the Lingotto plant (Fiat)? It's been refurbished into offices etc, but pretty iconic with the racetrack on top.

Re Nazi architecture: the KdF holiday complex in Prora could be an alternative... but it seems to have been renovated too.

Author Jonas Bergmann
Partaker
#77 | Posted: 12 Nov 2021 13:19 
Khuft
Yes. In general River Rouge should be the first choice, but I have problems with authenticity. Too often torn down, changed, and renewed, it seems. Compehensible, but still. Has anybody been there and can report?

Lingotto considered and skipped because there is nothing left except of the racetrack on top. And that is not enough to count as an example of an automobile plant. The rest is now refurnished for shops, offices, and entertainment. I will maybe rediscuss it when coming to the Torino Case later on.

Prora: Like often with Nazi-Architecture: Big plans, just a little bit realised. Therefore: No. But Nazi-Architecture is just an additional argument for Wolfsburg. Looking for the best example of an Automobile Plant and its development is the main point of discussion here in this case.

Author Jonas Bergmann
Partaker
#78 | Posted: 15 Nov 2021 09:23 | Edited by: Jonas Bergmann 
Classical Antiquity

Explanation: Sorry. Too many Greek and Roman ruins on the list. So my dream list will be a purge for them. But in some cases I don't know which one should remain. First some easier decisions:

Case No. 11: Roman Theaters: Orange – Bosra – Aspendos?
Case No. 12: Roman Walls: Lugo or Diyarbakir?
I am aware that Diyarbakir is not completely Roman, but mainly.
Case No. 13: Greek Stadiums: It's Aphrodisias clearly. But is a stadium enough for remaining the site inscribed? Or a redefinition to just the stadium?

Author Colvin
Partaker
#79 | Posted: 15 Nov 2021 21:13 
Jonas Bergmann:
Case No. 11: Roman Theaters: Orange – Bosra – Aspendos?

For Roman theaters, why not El Jem in Tunisia, one of the first sites inscribed on the World Heritage Site list?

Jonas Bergmann:
Case No. 12: Roman Walls:

As for Roman walls, are you looking for height or length? Lugo and Hadrian's Wall are quite different...

Author Jonas Bergmann
Partaker
#80 | Posted: 15 Nov 2021 23:41 | Edited by: Jonas Bergmann 
Colvin
Roman theatres for plays and actors not amphitheatres for gladiators and beasts. So El Jem is not what I am looking for.
Roman walls means walls of fortified cities or legionary camps not fortifications at the frontier. So Hadrian's Wall is not in the play (but in the next case concerning frontiers of the Roman empire).

Author Khuft
Partaker
#81 | Posted: 16 Nov 2021 15:20 
Jonas Bergmann:
Case No. 12: Roman Walls: Lugo or Diyarbakir? I am aware that Diyarbakir is not completely Roman, but mainly.

Interestingly, in the Diyarbakir nomination file, Lugo is not even mentioned! Based on some of the other comparative analysis sites, they seem to highlight that it was rather a citadel / fortress, and not just a mere city with walls. They also seem to put a lot of emphasis on the combination with the Hevsel Gardens.

The other Roman walls that immediately spring to my mind are the Theodosian Walls in Istanbul (which are also mentioned in the Diarbakir comparative analysis - however "Diyarbakır Fortress has the features of a real castle and the Castle Walls that surround it". In terms of historical importance, they certainly surpass the other two - they saved Constantinople on numerous occasions. By the same token, they were probably enhanced and repaired over time during the lifetime of the Byzantine Empire. And they visually striking as well!

Author Khuft
Partaker
#82 | Posted: 16 Nov 2021 15:25 
Jonas Bergmann:
Case No. 13: Greek Stadiums: It's Aphrodisias clearly. But is a stadium enough for remaining the site inscribed? Or a redefinition to just the stadium?

It's your list of course, so you can decide whatever you feel comfortable with. If "Stadium of Aphrodisias" alone would not cut it for you, you would anyway still have the Stadium of Delphi (which, according to Wikipedia, is the best preserved in modern-day Greece), presuming that you keep Delphi for the oracle and all the associated buildings.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#83 | Posted: 16 Nov 2021 16:13 
Khuft:
It's your list of course, so you can decide whatever you feel comfortable with. If "Stadium of Aphrodisias" alone would not cut it for you, you would anyway still have the Stadium of Delphi

And while maybe not as impressive as the two mentioned, there is also the stadium at Olympia, which does bring some history with it.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#84 | Posted: 16 Nov 2021 16:24 
Jonas Bergmann:
Roman theatres for plays and actors not amphitheatres for gladiators and beasts...
Roman walls means walls of fortified cities or legionary camps not fortifications at the frontier.

Good to know those definitions. I really have no opinions on Roman theaters for plays, but I do think Lugo would be a good choice for Roman walls given your parameters (though Khuft makes an excellent point about the Theodosian Walls, it would be up to your definition as to whether you consider Byzantine walls to suffice for Roman walls).

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#85 | Posted: 17 Nov 2021 03:58 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Jonas Bergmann:
Case No. 11: Roman Theaters:

How are you defining "Roman"? Many "Roman" theatres were orginally Greek... some of these were significantly altered to encompass the different theatrical traditions of Rome whilst others remained essentially as they were,
And what about "authenticity "? Orange underwent significant 19th C reconstruction and is rather "stand alone". The, on first viewing, rather fine "fully" Roman theatre at Sabratha was significantly rebuilt under the order of Mussolini - thus enabling him to attend a triumphal production there .
I personally prefer historic structures still situated within their overall site - even if that is largely a ruined one.
You will probably exclude the theatre at Pergamon from consideration as being almost entirely Greek in form ... but its location is unsurpassable.
The location of theatre at Ephesus shows its Greek origins but what remains is primarily a Roman structure and sits nicely within the wider ruins.
If it has got to be "good enough" for a contemporary performance then it is going to need a reasonably complete Skene of Roman design... Bosra meets that and is both large and totally "Roman"...as well as being still in an original authentic state.... but its location in Syria isn't very "convenient" for performances at the moment! Which takes us back to Aspendos I guess.....only a bit Greek.... quite large....not too restored by the Seljuks.....some other ruins around... still has live performances.....
Actually I wonder if the concept of a "Dream List" is actually a "Nightmare List" in which all potential assessment criteria have to be "compromised" in order to reach what could be described as a "lowest common denominator" which optimises across the criteria without actually being "best" at any?

I am sure you know the "domain" very well and that you have already made up your mind regarding your "Dream list" selections! I see that the Wiki List of Roman Theatres contains 76 Rows - including all the examples I have referred to above. We have visited all those examples and many of the others on the Wiki List and could find some further "value" among the others before reaching the "Theatred out" stage! I think my personal number for "Interesting Greco-Roman theatres" would level out at around 10 and that one would need to be a "specialist" to continue finding value further down ! Nevertheless - I have come across an even more comprehensive list titled the "Ancient Theatre Archive Project" covering both Greek and Roman theatres via an interactive Map (though it does currently rather run out of steam in detailed coverage of sites in N Africa and the Middle East beyond Turkey!)

Author Jonas Bergmann
Partaker
#86 | Posted: 17 Nov 2021 10:59 | Edited by: Jonas Bergmann 
Theodosian Walls: Khuft. You are right. When I was thinking of Roman walls I had only those in my mind where the walls had been the main reason for inscription. So of course Theodosian Walls or Aurelian Walls (Rome) can also count in general.
Stadiums: To be honest. I had also two other stadiums in my mind. A) Delphi. But that site will be on my dream list without any discussion at all. Therefore no mentioning here. And IMO not the best one preserved. B) Ancient Messene (TWHS). In general I think this is a site to watch. (See the very positive reviews of Thibault Magnien & Nan). But in the end Aphrodisias seems to be the best preserved stadium and I hesitate to put another Roman/Greek site as a whole on my list. Or is there anybody who can convince me of Messene instead of Aphrodisias?
Roman Theatres: Roman by time and style, so Greek in form excluded. Also here I have been looking for those, where the theatre is well preserved and the main reason for inscription. For those reasons the other ones being part of a larger archeological site are excluded in this case (e.g. Merida, Leptis Magna).

Author Jonas Bergmann
Partaker
#87 | Posted: 19 Nov 2021 06:01 | Edited by: Jonas Bergmann 
Case No. 14: Frontiers of the Roman Empire

Explanation: When I was a kid a map in my history book at school told me that there were two Roman frontier fortifications: Hadrians' Wall and the Upper German-Raetian Limes. At university I learnt that there existed three more: Antonine Wall, Limes Arabicus (Near East) and Limes Tripolitanus (North Africa). But the dotted lines at the map explained that Arabicus and Tripolitanus have not been "real ones". Today Wikipedia shows, that there were Limeses at all Frontiers of the Roman Empire and also beyond. Limes here, Limes there, Limes everywhere. Not Santa Claus, but Santa Limes is coming to town. So there exists the huge possibility to inscribe thousands of locations to the WHS list still. Dig in your garden, maybe you will find a piece and get the WHS sign soon.

Well ... I decided: Let's take examples that show what can be found also at the other Frontiers of the Roman Empire and scrap the rest (without denying their importance in history).
1. Walls/Palisades: Combined Hadrian's Wall for a masoned wall and Antonine Wall for a turf-covered wall.
2. Frontiers protected by a line of minor or larger castles and fortified towns: Here exists the choice between Limes Arabicus and Limes Tripolitanus. In general Limes Arabicus offers better preserved remains. Some of them (depending on the definition of its stretch) are already on the list (Palmyra, Bosra, Um er-Rasas) or TWHS (e.g. Jerash, Qasr Bshir), a lot more could be added. Limes Tripolitanus is more remote and less spectacular, but maybe better showing the harsh environments Roman soldiers at the edge of the known world had to serve in. Here we have already the TWHS Limes du Sud tunisien and Ghirza (Libyia). Also here many other locations could be added.

Question: Which one should I take? Limes Arabicus or Limes Tripolitanus? Please keep in mind: It's a general question and not a question about this or that specific location being part of the inscription.

Author Khuft
Partaker
#88 | Posted: 22 Nov 2021 08:49 
Jonas Bergmann:
Frontiers of the Roman Empire

As you point out, the Limes sites seem to mushroom recently. I wonder whether you need any apart from Hadrian's Wall, and then rather look at Bosra etc on the basis of their other merits.

Also, in a global dream list, how many Roman limes sites do you really need? Maybe it would be more interesting to look for walls etc in other cultures and time periods (Chinese Great Wall, of course, but also Gorgan wall, Danevirke, Madukkarai Wall in Southern India, Offa's Dyke, Maginot Line for a more recent example) - just providing these as examples, not necessarily judging on their quality.

Author Jonas Bergmann
Partaker
#89 | Posted: 22 Nov 2021 10:29 | Edited by: Jonas Bergmann 
Khuft
Two Roman Limes sites of different forms. And I will also have some walls in other cultures and time periods. You have already mentioned some of them. Offa's Dyke & Maginot Line will be discussed later. But in this case the question is about Roman walls only.

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