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Author m_m
#16 | Posted: 9 Jul 2009 23:05 

Author jonathanfr
#17 | Posted: 26 Dec 2013 04:31 
Maybe this list should be updated and expanded to become a top 100... I am surprised by example not see Naica.

Author winterkjm
#18 | Posted: 26 Dec 2013 09:03 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Maybe this list should be updated and expanded to become a top 100

I would second that, I do the think the website has grown considerably. More participation could yield an interesting list. There are several sites which have been inscribed, probably more in 2014-5.

Last time there was a tendency to include most sites that are not on tentative lists. Should t-list nominations and outside chance sites be included, or should a preference be chosen?

There is also a greater awareness of UNESCO member and non-member countries that have not yet received their first world heritage site.

Author jonathanfr
#19 | Posted: 26 Dec 2013 10:14 
At first, the sites should be removed because registered since:

- Amsterdam
- Meroe
- Çatalhöyük

This already leaves 3 vacancies.

Author jonathanfr
#20 | Posted: 26 Dec 2013 10:29 
Several questions may arise :

-The balance cultural vs. natural (25 / 25 ?)
-Need to balance between the continents ?
-Should we do appear in this top 50 only sites that are not on Tentative Lists ?
-Should we be represented by at least one site each country that has not yet listed site?

The objective of this top 50 might be to say that when these oversights 50 will be filled on the World Heritage List, we can die in peace :)

Author winterkjm
#21 | Posted: 26 Dec 2013 13:11 | Edited by: winterkjm 
There was a lot of "world class" tentative sites ignored in favor of sites that perhaps deserve world heritage status, but for various reasons are not even nominated.

For example,

- The Grand Canal
- The Silk Road

- Qhapac Nan

I think we should hold to only suggesting tentative sites already nominated, except when a country does not have a tentative list, or if it is extremely outdated (before 1998, 15 years). If we want to avoid repetition and create a more complete list we could also not include tentative nominations that will be evaluated by the WHC in 2014 (since many will likely be inscribed). Quite a few of the original list could be carried over when applicable.

Author Solivagant
#22 | Posted: 26 Dec 2013 15:06 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I have just had a look back to when all this started back in May 2008 - e=0#msg52

Goodness how time flies! Right from the start we had this issue as to whether to include only Existing T List, no T List at all or mixed. also whether to go up to "100 Missing" etc

Things have moved on since then - the T Lists themselves have grown, as jonathanfr points out some top "missing" sites have been inscribed, our knowledge and understanding of the domain has increased (speaking for myself at any rate!) and we now have a clearer picture of just how many/few of us are likely to contribute to this forum (fewer than 10 and possibly only 5 or 6?).

I think that the idea that there are going to be enough of us to develop a consensus on the "Top 50 missing" is not going to fly. The main potential interest from developing such a list is to
a. Introduce sites of which some of us might not be aware -
i. either at all
ii or, if they are already on a T List, then perhaps not well enough
b. Broaden all our ideas on what might be suitable material.

A "Top 50 missing" list based ONLY on existing T List sites is only going to provide interest under aii. Perfecly valid - I am surprised sometimes with what I find in the darker recesses of the T List! But, in all honesty, the "surprises" when they come to light are mostly going to be of the "interesting but not World class" type.

A problem with limiting the list to sites NOT on the current T List is that it highlights a lot of sites which, although they might well be of "World class" we know that, for all sorts of reasons they will NEVER be nominated (e.g Panama Canal!)

We never actually limited ourselves to nominating only 50 sites but "ran out of steam" when we were not that much past that number - so actions to limit oursleves just to 50 suggestions don't I thnik need to be determined yet! I would suggest that we update the current "mixed" list (ie T List and non T List sites) wth those sites already inscribed, see if that many new suggestions emerge and take it from there if they do! If we finish up with a 100 suggestions then we can decide whether to split them T List/Non T List and/or have some sort of informal discussion on how significant.

The problem I think is how to avoid just finishing up with a series of "personal" proposals - I am sure that 10 of us "active" posters each suggesting up to 50 sites from the current T List could well come up with over 300 proposals without a great deal of overlap - and certainly not an overlap by which 50 sites emerged! Maybe 10-20 would gain some "common agreement" (THe Bagans of this world and a Bhutanese Dzong!). But we have these identified already.

No answers I am afraid but just trying to clarify what the objectives would be and what the chances are of meeting them.

Author jonathanfr
#23 | Posted: 26 Dec 2013 15:54 
Here are my favorites from the tentative lists:

BHOUTAN Dzongs: the centre of temporal and religious authorities (Punakha Dzong, Wangdue Phodrang Dzong, Paro Dzong, Trongsa Dzong and Dagana Dzong)
BOLIVIE / PEROU Lac Titicaca
BOTSWANA Okavango Delta Candidature 2014
CHINE The Lijiang River Scenic Zone at Guilin
CHINE Chinese Section of the Silk Road: Land routes in Henan Province, Shaanxi Province, Gansu Province, Qinghai Province, Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, and Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region Candidature 2014
COMORES Ecosystèmes Marins de l'Archipel des Comores
COSTA RICA Precolumbian chiefdom settlements with stone spheres of Diquís Candidature 2014
EGYPTE Alexandria, ancient remains and the new library
EGYPTE Pharaonic temples in Upper Egypt from the Ptolemaic and Roman periods
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Frank Lloyd Wright Buildings
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Petrified Forest National Park
FEDERATION DE RUSSIE The Bolgar historical-architectural complex
FRANCE Chaîne des Puys et faille de Limagne Candidature 2014
FRANCE L'œuvre architecturale et urbaine de Le Corbusier
FRANCE La Grotte ornée Chauvet-Pont d'Arc Candidature 2014
FRANCE Massif du Mont Blanc
FRANCE Phare de Cordouan
FRANCE Sites mégalithiques de Carnac
GRECE The Palace of Knossos
INDE Excavated Remains at Nalanda
INDE Mughal Gardens in Kashmir
INDE Urban and Architectural Work of Le Corbusier in Chandigarh
INDE Sri Harimandir Sahib, Amritsar, Punjab
INDE The Qutb Shahi Monuments of Hyderabad Golconda Fort, Qutb Shahi Tombs, Charminar Candidature 2014
IRAN (REPUBLIQUE ISLAMIQUE D') The Complex of Handmade Settlements in Iran (Maymand Village)
IRAQ The Sacred Complex of Babylon
IRLANDE The Royal Sites of Ireland: Cashel, Dún Ailinne, Hill of Uisneach, Rathcroghan Complex, and Tara Complex
IRLANDE The Monastic City of Clonmacnoise and its Cultural Landscape
ISLANDE Vatnajökull National Park
ISRAEL Porte aux trois arches de Dan
KENYA The African Great Rift Valley - The Maasai Mara
MALDIVES Coral Stone Mosques of Maldives
MEXIQUE Ring of cenotes of Chicxulub Crater, Yucatan
MYANMAR Bagan Archaeological Area and Monuments
PALESTINE Ancient Jericho: Tell es-Sultan
PAPOUASIE-NOUVELLE-GUINEE The Sublime Karsts of Papua New Guinea
PEROU Archaeological Complex of Pachacamac
PEROU Sistema Vial Andino/Qhapaq Ñan Candidature 2014
REPUBLIQUE DEMOCRATIQUE POPULAIRE LAO Sites Mégalithiques de la province de Xieng Khouang

and here are my suggestions that are not on tentative lists:

AFGHANISTAN Shrine of Hazrat Ali
AFRIQUE DU SUD Parc national Kruger
ALGERIE Parc national de l'Ahaggar
ALLEMAGNE Porte de Brandebourg
ALLEMAGNE Château de Neuschwanstein
ANTARCTIQUE Vallées sèches de McMurdo
BAHAMAS Trou bleu de Dean
BOLIVIE Réserve nationale de faune andine Eduardo Avaroa
BOLIVIE Salar de Uyuni
BRESIL Maracanã
CANADA / ETATS-UNIS Chutes Niagara
CHINE Drepung
CHINE Kailash
EGYPTE Canal de Suez
ESPAGNE Las Ventas
ESPAGNE Campo de Criptana
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Devils Tower National Monument
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Empire State Building
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Marianas Trench Marine National Monument
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Parc national de Bryce Canyon
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Parc national des Arches
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Vieux carré français de La Nouvelle-Orléans
ETATS-UNIS D'AMERIQUE Washington (district de Columbia)
FRANCE Ossuaire de Douaumont
GRECE Santorin
INDE Palais des vents
INDONESIE Marine Mega-Diversity Heritage of Indonesia
MAURITANIE Structure de Richat
MEXIQUE Bonampak
MEXIQUE Mine de Naïca
MYANMAR Pagode Shwedagon
PANAMA Canal de Panama
THAILANDE Palais royal (Bangkok)
VENEZUELA Parc national Jaua-Sarisariñama

in addition, it may be necessary to add a site to represent the following major cities:

Buenos Aires
Los Angeles
São Paulo

Author winterkjm
#24 | Posted: 26 Dec 2013 20:53 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Outstanding Sites on current Tentative List

- The Lijiang River Scenic Zone at Guilin (12/02/1996)

- Lake Titicaca (17/06/2005)

- El Nido-Taytay Managed Resource Protected Area (16/05/2006)

South Korea
- Southwestern Coast Tidal Flats (11/01/2010)

United States
- Petrified Forest National Park (30/01/2008)
- White Sands National Monument (30/01/2008)
- Frank Lloyd Wright Buildings (30/01/2008)

Outstanding Sites NOT included on any Tentative List

North Korea
- Baekdu Mountain

- Taroko Gorge National Park

United States
- Sinagua Culture (Arizona)
- Movie Palaces of Los Angeles (California)
- Gamble House (California)
- Sequoia & King's Canyon National Parks (California)
- Big Sur (California)

Author Solivagant
#25 | Posted: 27 Dec 2013 14:38 
here are my suggestions that are not on tentative lists:

Interesting List!
I particularly liked
a. Naica
b. Laas Gaal
c. Uyuni

One certainly wonders why some of them have never previously been nominated or at least placed on a T List.

We have visited 26 of the 48 T List and 23 of the 43 Non T List sites on your list so can comment on some of them from first hand experience - concentrating on a few from the "Non T List" list!
a. Bonampak – I understand that the murals are considered particularly important but when I was there back in 1971 (!!) they were hardly visible among the undergrowth - no roads (we flew in), no other tourists and we stayed with the Lacandons in a nearby village. I guess they could be enough to raise it above the many other uninscribed Mayan sites?
b. Richat Structure - A bit difficult to make out "on the ground" even though the photos from space are spectacular. Given that it is generally agreed nowadays to be an eroded "dome" rather than a meteorite crater I wonder how "special" it is geologically other than for its amazing "regularity".
c. Panama and Suez Canals are certainly testimony to the engineering skills of their age and have great historical significance but they are both "working" canals and not really suitable for WHS inscription. For the Panama Canal however I do wonder if there might be some associated historic buildings which would be worth preserving as proxies for the canals themselves. I think particularly of the Admin building in Panama, some of the Canal Zone "colonial" areas and a Lock "control" building?
d. Tula. Certainly well worth a visit and represents a phase between the 2 "nearby" sites of Teotihuacan and Tenochtitlan so has the potentiall merit of filling a gap. Is also reasonably "Iconic" with its platform of statues!
e. Atomium - very much of its "era" with all that post WWII "hope" in technology/science- but, architecturally, is it really of any significance?
f. Kruger. Its best argument could be as part of a Transboundary park with Mozambique and Zimbabwe? I suspect that, ecologically, it doesn't add a lot to what is already inscribed
g. Royal Palace Bangkok - the unwillingness of the Thai government to progress a site in Bangkok is surprising. I would have thought it could succeed if they tried but it wouldn't be among my "top 50 missing"
h. The Matterhorn (Cervin). Certainly an impressive mountain but a lot of the Alps are already inscribed!
i. Palace of the Winds. Iconic building but surprisingly small and "lost" within surrounding Jaipur. I suppose that sites like Bremen town Hall "overcame" this weakness?
j. Brandenburg Gate . I personally can't see any reason for inscribing it let alone placing it in a Top 50 missing
k. Neuschwanstein. We have discussed this in this Forum previously. "Iconic"- certainly, but, as a 19th C artefact, what of real OUV does it demonstrate?

Re Perm-36 I note several comments on the Web that it is being "considered" for WH nomination – but I can never find anything specific.

Author jonathanfr
#26 | Posted: 27 Dec 2013 17:58 
Thank you for your comments. I tried to be as objective as possible, most of the proposed sites are iconic and symbolic, for "outstanding universal value" advisory bodies that will determine whether it is real or not. Maybe Els can mingle in the debate and consider some corrections on the top 50?

It seems certain that Naica unanimous to join the top 50. Simply type the word "Naica" in Google Images if you have never seen a photograph of this site ... It is closed to the public but it is certainly a wonder of the Earth.

Perm-36, as Unit 731, this is politics and controversy, we must be patient, but I hope they include the list someday.

For the United States, this country seems to me underrepresented, so I offered some of their most iconic landmarks. Some of them were on their old tentative list.

A site that came to mind later is the Bering Strait, as transboundary site. Its historical importance in the history of man is demonstrated. It could be a land and sea area, straddling two continents.

Author meltwaterfalls
#27 | Posted: 27 Dec 2013 18:31 
Hopefully I will get a bit of time to engage in this in the next few days, but I'm happy to see it resurrected.

One thing I have noticed is that my research has become rather entrenched in already inscribed WHS and thus quite a few of the unrepresented areas in the world are still something of a gap in my knowledge. So I'm looking forward to some of the proposals that will be put forward on here.

Having said that when I was mapping a few of the tentative sites, some countries really had some wonderful places on their T-lists; Afghanistan, Georgia and Western China seemed very impressive from my memory.

BRESIL Maracanã
:) I'm always going to support a proposal like that, though I think its most recent make over has removed a little of its charm, but it has plenty of scope to add to its iconic status next year and 2016, (though chances of England playing a significant role in anything iconic are pretty slim).

On a similar note this year I finally visited the Olympic Stadium in Munich which I previously nominated and felt even more strongly that it would be a great candidate WHS, perhaps it is just that bit too modern for consideration but I would rank it pretty high if it were inscribed.

Author elsslots
#28 | Posted: 28 Dec 2013 00:07 
Maybe Els can mingle in the debate and consider some corrections on the top 50?

I have just removed the 3 out of the 50 that were since inscribed. I will start a new topic for "Top 50 missing - 2014 version".

Author Durian
#29 | Posted: 28 Dec 2013 09:22 | Edited by: Durian 
Royal Palace Bangkok - the unwillingness of the Thai government to progress a site in Bangkok is surprising. I would have thought it could succeed if they tried

I am not surprised at all in this matter, if we look at current ruling monarchy around the world, most of their official residence are excluded from the WHS. The exception I can find is Grand Duke Palace in Luxembourg. Royal Palace is Amsterdam is just a buffer zone, while the Rabat one is explicitly excluded both core and buffer zones even censor in the official map! Drottningholm is considered a private royal residence, not an official one, and I don't consider pope as monarchy of Vatican City, so these two are also not exception.

If we look at these palaces, many of them has high potential to be on WHS. For example, Kyoto Imperial Palace a good extension of Kyoto WHS, Bangkok Palace for its glittering temple, Phnom Penh Palace for its interesting mix of Asian-French style, Stockholm and its old quarter, Madrid for its symbol of Spanish Empire, Brunei for its modern malay style or even Windsor or Buckingham Palace!!?

Author Solivagant
#30 | Posted: 28 Dec 2013 10:33 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Royal Palace Bangkok - the unwillingness of the Thai government to progress a site in Bangkok is surprising. I would have thought it could succeed if they tried
I am not surprised at all in this matter,

What I meant was "surprise" that Thailand hasn't attempted to get a site in Bangkok.
But your point about "Official Royal Residences" is well made. I suppose that to extract a "non residential" part from the entire complex would not be acceptable to ICOMOS even if it were to the Thai people?

Regarding "Royal Palaces" in UK - there are actually 2 "current" palaces which are inscribed
Palace of Westminster - The Management Plan states "The Palace of Westminster remains a Royal Palace and the Lord Great Chamberlian exercises control of certain parts on behalf of the Sovereign""
Palace of Holyrood (Edinburgh) - "Is the official residence of the Monarch of the United Kingdom in Scotland". Remember she is "Queen of Scotland" in her own right - strictly she is Queen Elizabeth II of England and Wales and Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland. If Scotland chooses independence next year they intend remaining a Monarchy, in which case the distinction between the 2 titles becomes more significant!

I won't attempt to explain the issue of "ownership" of such Palaces - it has certain aspects which can only be described as "mystical"! The UK Sovereign does "own" some properties in her own right and others by having accepted the "job" of Queen (from which she gains certain income and tax benefits!). Others are purely "official" palaces which she "uses" for certain jobs but does not own.... I think! no doubt Thailand has its own "peculiar" arrangements on these matters. My main point is that none of this actually prevented UK from inscribing these 2 "Royal Palaces"

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