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TOP Missing By Country - Discussion

 
 
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Author winterkjm
Partaker
#1 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 15:10 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Top Approved Proposals (USA)

It has not been decided what "narrowing" if any will occur. so consider this an opinion on approved proposals from the United States as promoting dialogue. I broke down the 39 proposals into 3 tiers (1- top missing potential, 2 - worthy of WHS status, 3 (questionably OUV and/or too niche). Regardless if proposals are "cut" from the final voting or not, I would encourage specific attention toward the 14 sites I listed in Tier 1. When we consider what US sites should be identified as TOP Missing, this is a good place to start. Understandably, many users will have different opinions and I am curious to hear them.

Tier 1 (alphabetical) *Strong argument for top missing

2 (Approved) Ancestral Lands of the Diné: Canyon de Chelly & Monument Valley
2 (Approved) Bering Sea - Alaska Maritime National Wildlife Refuge and Commander Islands (transnational)
2 (Approved) California Current Conservation Complex
2 (Approved) Coso Rock Art District
2 (Approved) Early Chicago Skyscrapers
2 (Approved) Early Space Launch Facilities of the 20th Century (transnational)
2 (Approved) Lake Superior National Marine Conservation Area (transnational)
2 (Approved) Mojave Desert: Death Valley & Joshua Tree National Park
2 (Approved) New York City Skyscrapers
2 (Approved) Petrified Forest National Park
2 (Approved) Sequoia & Kings Canyon National Park
2 (Approved) Spread of International Style Modernism to the United States
2 (Approved) Santa Elena Canyon & Big Bend International Peace Park (transnational)
2 (Approved) White Sands National Monument

Tier 2 (alphabetical) *Strong case for world heritage status

2 (Approved) Alaka'i Swamp
2 (Approved) Arches National Park
2 (Approved) Badlands National Park: A North American Prairie
2 (Approved) Bodie Historic District
2 (Approved) Case Study Houses in Los Angeles
2 (Approved) Ford Plant Ensemble: Birth of the Automotive Industry
2 (Approved) Golden Gate Bridge
2 (Approved) Heritage of the Hawaiian Kingdom
2 (Approved) History of Film: Hollywood & the Movie Palaces on Broadway, Los Angeles
2 (Approved) Ice Age Floods National Geologic Trail
2 (Approved) Marianas Trench Marine National Monument
2 (Approved) Rock Art of the Chumash People
2 (Approved) Temple Square, Salt Lake City

Tier 3 (alphabetical) *Potential, but includes one or more issues listed: too niche, not recognized as nationally important, authenticity issues, or nationalistic

2 (Approved) Arecibo Observatory (Puerto Rico) (thematic studies needed, not recognized nationally)
2 (Approved) Caguana and Tibes (Puerto Rico) (primarily ceremonial ball courts, too niche)
2 (Approved) Eastern State Penitentiary (too niche, concerns about celebrating prison/mass incarceration)
2 (Approved) First Transcontinental Railroad (Golden Spike National Historical Park would be the centerpiece?)
2 (Approved) French Quarter of New Orleans (authenticity issues)
2 (Approved) Fur Trading Centers of the Northwest (American components inferior to Canadian sites)
2 (Approved) Hoover Dam (marks the destruction of the Colorado River Delta)
2 (Approved) Major works of Louis Kahn (almost none of the discussed sites are recognized as nationally significant)
2 (Approved) Mall of Washington DC (nationalistic and compromised by excessive war memorials)
2 (Approved) Works of Alvar Aalto (too niche, not recognized as nationally significant)
2 (Approved) Quincy Mine (too niche)
2 (Approved) Tevatron (thematic studies needed, not recognized as nationally significant)

Perhaps, some users could consider posting such a tiered list for Russia or China? It might highlight the most exceptional sites more clearly.

Author Assif
Partaker
#2 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 15:24 | Edited by: Assif 
winterkjm:
Potential, but includes one or more issues listed: too niche, not recognized as nationally important, authenticity issues, or nationalistic

I can guess that Mall of Washington DC would be too nationalistic, in your opinion, but for the other candidates it would be interesting to know what drawbacks you see. Maybe you could add a short explanation as to why you would reject them.

In a side note, I find the country specific analysis interesting, but not necessarily helpful for global or regional comparisons. Although unlikely, you can choose your top missing with no sites from the USA at all.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#3 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 15:49 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Assif:
for the other candidates it would be interesting to know what drawbacks you see

I added some of the drawbacks. I do not see this thread as specific to the US, but perhaps useful for the countries which we approved several nominations (USA, Russia, China, and others).

As I hope is clear, this is very much my opinion and I could certainly be persuaded about some of the sites I listed in Tier 2. Some users may have had special experiences at certain sites or place particular value on the gap that site would fill.

2 (Approved) First Transcontinental Railroad (Golden Spike National Historical Park would be the centerpiece?)
2 (Approved) Fur Trading Centers of the Northwest (American components inferior to Canadian sites)
2 (Approved) Hoover Dam (marks the destruction of the Colorado River Delta)
2 (Approved) Mall of Washington DC (nationalistic and compromised by excessive war memorials)

I struggled with these 4 most, because their historical importance is without question. I generally have a harsh opinion about damming effects on the natural environment. Hoover Dam is an engineering feat and therefore, my struggle about its complex legacy. I think the Fur Trading Centers has the most potential, but on the American side the tangible remains are a logical extension, but certainly not of OUV alone. The transcontinental railroad is big in symbolic importance, there are even some preserved sections. However, it's not preserved in any complete level like other Historic railways and Promontory Point is hardly stunning.

The D.C. Mall is really special and I loved visiting these sites.

Yet, the war memorial boom (however tasteful) troubles me. These sites have been criticized for interrupting the historic character of the national mall and altering the un-interrupted views of its axis. There is also concerns that some of the locations have been specifically placed to disrupt protests. With more memorials likely on the way, the authenticity of the national mall dissolves further.

"But the 1982 dedication of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial launched a war-memorial-building boom. Monuments to those who served in Korea (1995) and World War II (2004) followed. Since then, the pace of one per decade has dramatically increased. Today, five war memorials are being planned for spots on or near the Mall. In addition to Desert Storm, they will commemorate World War I, the global war on terrorism, Native American veterans, and African Americans — both free and enslaved — who served in the American Revolution. On top of that, all three existing national memorials have been approved for expansions: Fundraising is underway for an underground education center beside the Vietnam memorial; the Korean War Veterans Memorial is slated to get its own Vietnam-style wall etched with the names of the more than 36,000 American military personnel who were killed; and, more modestly, a plaque with President Franklin D. Roosevelt's D-Day prayer is being designed for the National World War II Memorial." Washington Post

Author Colvin
Partaker
#4 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 16:16 
winterkjm:
Understandably, many users will have different opinions and I am curious to hear them.

Man, a lot of California sites made it into your Top Missing category! Obviously everyone's top missing would be subjective. For instance, I would place most recent modern architecture into what you classify as Tier 2, strong argument for World Heritage (but not Top Missing) status, since I believe more time is necessary to really evaluate impact.

Some of the candidates you list in Tier 2, I think could very easily be Tier 1 candidates for me, although I would have to prioritize what would actually make my list based on any criteria restrictions. For me, these sites would be Tier 1-worthy (alphabetically):
2 (Approved) Ford Plant Ensemble: Birth of the Automotive Industry
2 (Approved) Heritage of the Hawaiian Kingdom
2 (Approved) Ice Age Floods National Geologic Trail
2 (Approved) Marianas Trench Marine National Monument

Similarly, there are candidates you list as Tier 1 that I wouldn't consider Top Missing, but certainly worthy of World Heritage inscription status (Tier 2). For me, those include (alphabetically):
2 (Approved) Coso Rock Art District
2 (Approved) Petrified Forest National Park
2 (Approved) Spread of International Style Modernism to the United States
That said, I certainly understand that Top Missing/Tier 1 is subjective, depending on each person.

I'd be curious to hear what other folks have to say about other countries.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#5 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 16:42 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Colvin:
Man, a lot of California sites made it into your Top Missing category!

True, some bias there. California is very similar in size with Sweden, Spain and Japan, but with only 3 WHS!

5 of 14 in Tier 1
5 of 13 in Tier 2

I have visited 19 of the 39 approved US sites, which also creates a bias. I am inclined to believe that familiarity can influence voting, but I will try to give every proposal due diligence.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#6 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 16:46 | Edited by: Colvin 
winterkjm:
California is very similar in size with Spain or Japan, but with only 3 WHS.

Oh, I understand, and I appreciate your passion for your adopted state. I definitely have enjoyed everything I've seen when I've been out in California; it's a very diverse state. Unfortunately, because of the vast number of sites that have been proposed, I think I may only end up with only one site from California that makes my Top Missing list.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#7 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 16:51 
The shock, only one! Haha

Author Colvin
Partaker
#8 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 16:57 | Edited by: Colvin 
Europe/North America is a brutal region -- so many worthy candidates to choose from! And I do have another California site sitting on my short buffer list.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#9 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 17:31 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Colvin:
Europe/North America is a brutal region

I will probably select 6-7 sites in North America and 3-4 sites in Europe. Now that I am looking at it more closely I will likely only select 2 sites from CA if we are limited to 10 per region. It would be hard to resist the lure of region-free voting, thats one reason why I am not very supportive of the idea, too much temptation.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#10 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 17:51 
winterkjm:
It would be hard to resist the lure of region-free voting

I agree, which is why I am trying to formulate my list giving equal balance to region, and ensuring a minimum number of natural sites are included (though that was a bit of a challenge for the Arab States region, where I found far more cultural sites of interest than natural/mixed sites).

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#11 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 18:00 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Thoughts on Russia? I have no idea how to break this down. I highlighted in bold some sites that "grab my attention" but I would love to hear from more users familiar with these sites.

2 (Approved) Arkaim
2 (Approved) Pazyryk burial sites
2 (Approved) Vainakh towers
2 (Approved) Dolmens of North Caucasus
2 (Approved) Vera Island
2 (Approved) Kapova Cave (Shulgan-Tash)
2 (Approved) Seven Sisters
2 (Approved) Moscow Metro Stations
2 (Approved) Tobolsk
2 (Approved) Trans-Siberian Railway
2 (Approved) Lena River Delta
2 (Approved) The Great Vasyugan Mire
2 (Approved) Land of the Leopard National Park
2 (Approved) Works of Alvar Aalto
2 (Approved) Bering Sea - Alaska Maritime National Wildlife Refuge and Commander Islands
2 (Approved) Early Space Launch Facilities of the 20th Century (transnational)

2 (Approved) Lower Amur River Basin
2 (Approved) Volga Delta
2 (Approved) Russian Arctic
2 (Approved) Petroglyphs of Lake Onega and the White Sea
2 (Approved) Central Siberia Nature Reserve
2 (Approved) Rostov Kremlin

Author Colvin
Partaker
#12 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 18:17 | Edited by: Colvin 
I have traveled the Trans-Siberian, but I am far less interested in it than other sites. To me, while impressive, it would be hard to choose what is representative, and I don't find it as significant in the scope of railway history as the US transcontinental railroad. It wouldn't make my Top Missing, though I could see a case for it as a Tier 2 site.

In addition to the ones you list, I also find the Moscow Metro Stations, Arkaim, the Lena River Delta, the Volga River Delta, and the Lower Amur River Basin potential Tier 1/Top Missing sites.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#13 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 18:17 
Top Approved Proposals (China)

Some fantastic sites here, but not as exhaustive as the US and Russian list.

Tier 1 (alphabetical) *Strong argument for top missing

2 (Approved) Great Tibetan Monasteries
2 (Approved) Kashgar
2 (Approved) Mount Kailash
2 (Approved) Sacred Mountain Landscape: Changbai Range and Mt Paektu (transnational)
2 (Approved) Western Xia mausoleums

Tier 2 (alphabetical) *Strong case for world heritage status

2 (Approved) Ancient Waterfront Towns in the South of Yangtze River
2 (Approved) Ban Gioc Waterfall System
2 (Approved) Drum and Bell Towers of China (serial)
2 (Approved) Imperial Xi'an
2 (Approved) Lingqu Canal
2 (Approved) Shanghai foreign concessions
2 (Approved) ShuDao
2 (Approved) Wooden Structures of Liao Dynasty

Repeat nomination (too much overlap, should be deleted?)
2 (Approved) Central Axis of Beijing

Author Colvin
Partaker
#14 | Posted: 6 Jun 2020 21:34 | Edited by: Colvin 
winterkjm:
The D.C. Mall is really special and I loved visiting these sites.

Yet, the war memorial boom (however tasteful) troubles me.

This site is probably my most visited site on the proposed list of nominations for the United States, yet I've been very indifferent to it in the past. To me, even though the architecture is spectacular, the museums and memorials seem rather nationalistic, and not important enough to make it to World Heritage status.

Except that today has reminded me of a more important role of the National Mall. It is the people's forum for the United States. Here, the truth that was written into the US Declaration of Independence--"all men are created equal"-- has been put to the test over the years, from marches for women's suffrage, to civil rights, to LGBT rights, to today's protests calling once again for an end to injustice against the African American community.

Other nations also have forums for people to make their voices heard, but the National Mall of the United States is one of the most influential. For better or for worse, the freedoms that the United States ratified in its first amendment to the Constitution 200 years ago have been observed, modeled, and in some cases fought over, by countries around the world. Nowhere in the United States are those freedoms better exemplified than in the National Mall, and that is the best case that I think can be made for it on the world stage.

That said, I think we'll have to get past this president to one who actually understands the Constitution before a nomination for the National Mall would actually mean something.

Author Sjobe
Partaker
#15 | Posted: 7 Jun 2020 03:09 
winterkjm:
2 (Approved) Vainakh towers

I think this is one of the most interesting and promising sites of Russia. One thing that bothers me is the title of the site that we are using. To me it sounds like a "working title", not a precise name of the site. Still, Russia has already a TWHS that is focused on Vainakh towers, Historical and Cultural Jeyrakh-Assa Reservation. It is the largest concentration of Vainakh towers, located in Ingushetia. In Jeyrakh-Assa is also one of the oldest Christian shrines of Russia. My opinion is that we should use this site to represent Vainakh towers. It would define this site better and make the title more precise. They can't nominate all the Vainakh towers in Russia anyway.

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