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Top 50 Missing - 2020 version - Whiteboard

 
 
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Author Jurre
Partaker
#106 | Posted: 10 May 2020 19:58 
winterkjm:
Perhaps the gap of 20th century architecture in the US is largely filled by the proposals already seconded?

Indeed. Goff is a lesser name, so I wouldn't include him in the emergence of the International Style in the USA.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#107 | Posted: 10 May 2020 21:02 
Jurre:
What about a site with "The Work of I.M. Pei"?

Whether or not I.M. Pei gets a serial nomination, at least he already has a structure on the World Heritage Site list; his work on the Louvre is inscribed as part of the Paris, Banks of the Seine WHS. If anyone is interested, there is a connection for Pritzker Architecture Prize winners with more information on award-winning architects who have buildings on the WHS list.

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#108 | Posted: 11 May 2020 06:46 
Jurre:
Goff is a lesser name, so I wouldn't include him in the emergence of the International Style in the USA.

Thanks for flagging him up though, I must admit he is a bit of a blank spot for me, but provides something to explore. The riverside studio was much but much earlier than I would have thought from looking at it.

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#109 | Posted: 11 May 2020 13:14 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
Coming over from the other thread as this is a little more spit balling around the issue (sorry I don't have as much time to comment at the moment, it is a great idea though)

winterkjm:
Spread of International Style Modernism to the United States

I like the idea, though I wonder if it is potentially a little hard to define, and by limiting it to just the example in the USA it is somewhat missing the OUV and/or opening up a can of worms, The spread of the International Style in Canada ... in Mexico ... in France ... in Germany.

Whilst I wouldn't object to any of the buildings put forward, there are a lot that would be missing, and the list could end up being exceptionally long.

The obvious additions are the buildingesselected for the original MoMa exhibition that defined the International Style, though I will admit a couple of the US examples are a little underwhelming: McGraw Hill Building, New York, PSFS Building, Philadelphia, former Film Guild Cinema, New York and Luxury APrtments in Evanston Illinois designed by the Bowman Brothers, as far as I can tell this was unfortunately unbuilt, but would have looked like this.

Of those not included, Phillip Johnson's Glass House and Lever House, plus works by Marcel Breuer (e.g. Gropius House) would seem to be good additions.

With the 8 building winterkjm has put forward I wonder if it would perhaps make a little more sense to include them in other proposal, that fit a more established WHS pattern.

Mies buildings as, The Architectural Masterpieces of Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe (extension of Tugendhat Villa CzR) I would include the 5 buildinsg picked out, plus the Neue Nationalgalerie in Berlin, reconstructed Barcelona Pavilion (may not be authentic but reconstructed in such a thorough way it should qualify, plus plenty of sites esp. in East Asia are reconstructed) Toronto Dominion Centre and perhaps Chicago Federal Complex.

Then the other could form the part of a proposal I had intended to make, something like
Palm Springs: Mid Century Modern Masterpieces, the Kaufman House alone would get my vote as a top 10 missing site, but I was blown away by the quality of architecture on show.

Though perhaps it could also be extended to involve teh case study house to be a sort of Southern California Modernism propossal?

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#110 | Posted: 11 May 2020 14:05 | Edited by: winterkjm 
meltwaterfalls:
McGraw Hill Building (1931)

meltwaterfalls:
PSFS Building (1932)

Might be useful additions, though the McGraw Hill Building should be included in the NYC Skyscrapers.

meltwaterfalls:
Gropius House 1938)

meltwaterfalls:
Glass House (1947-49)

I think these would make worthy additions. All National Historic Landmarks, which includes other important architects of the movement. I am particularly supportive of adding both the later houses to the proposal.

meltwaterfalls:
Palm Springs: Mid Century Modern Masterpieces

I would love to see something like this develop, but the reality is most houses are not fully visitable. Though Palm Springs does a great job with Modernism Week and the maps for self-guided tours are very useful. Another factor, no Palm Springs building is designated at the national level.

Meltwaterfalls, I made an UPDATE to the proposal, including OUV statement, thoughts?

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#111 | Posted: 11 May 2020 16:58 | Edited by: winterkjm 
meltwaterfalls:
The Architectural Masterpieces of Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe

The established patter is sometimes the problem according to ICOMOS, who seem very wary toward inscribing "masterworks" from specific modern architects. At the same time, in the FLW AB Evaluation it is stated, " it is possible to state that together with Le Corbusier and Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, Frank Lloyd Wright can be considered as one of the most influential architect of his century." So I could see a serial Ludwig Mies van der Rohe nomination as a viable option.

The Architectural Work of Le Corbusier, an Outstanding Contribution to the Modern Movement (Rejected in 2009 and 2011)

"The third revised nomination is virtually a new nomination, particularly in terms of the way the sites are presented in relation to the justification for Outstanding Universal Value, and the explanations for the conceptual basis of the choice of component part of the series. The nomination is shorter and clearer and sets out precisely how the attributes of each component site contributes to the proposed Outstanding Universal Value of the overall series. The emphasis is on the way the sites convey the innovative nature of the buildings and the influence they have had all over the world as a reflection of the new architectural ideas and approaches promoted by Le Corbusier. This is in contrast to the previous nominations which tended to present the buildings for what they contributed toward the architect's development." - AB Evaluation

The 20th-Century Architecture of Frank Lloyd Wright - Rejected in 2016

"redefine the rationale for a series of components (not necessarily the ones currently nominated) that might have the potential to justify Outstanding Universal Value through conveying the way one or more exceptional facets of the oeuvre of Frank Lloyd Wright influenced the architecture of the 20th century." - AB Evaluation

Author Jurre
Partaker
#112 | Posted: 12 May 2020 09:49 
Anything good among these TWHS that I gleaned from the lists?

- The Holy place of worship of Ukonsaari by the Sami people at Inari (Finland)
- La Camargue (France)
- Les villes antiques de la Narbonnaise et leur territoire : Nîmes, Arles, Glanum, aqueducs, via Domitia (France)
- Colchis Wetlands and Forests (Georgia)
- Mta-Tusheti (Georgia)
- Darmstadt Artists' Colony Mathildenhöhe (Germany)
- Residence Ensemble Schwerin – Cultural Landscape of Romantic Historicism (Germany)
- Þingvellir National Park (Iceland)
- Historic Centre of Lucca (Italy)
- The cultural landscape of the Benedictine settlements in medieval Italy (Italy)
- The Marble Basin of Carrara (Italy)
- Villas of the Papal Nobility (Italy)
- Lake Maggiore and Lake D'Orta lakelands (Italy)
- The fortified hilltop cities of Mdina and Cittadella (Malta)
- The Augustów Canal (Poland)
- The Historic Centre of Sibiu and its Ensemble of Squares (Romania)
- Rostov Kremlin (Russia)
- Group of Mozarabic buildings on the Iberian Peninsula (Spain)
- Talayotic Culture of Minorca (Spain)
- Archaeological Site of Priene (Turkey)
- Archaeological Site of Sagalassos (Turkey)
- Gordion (Turkey)
- Ancient Chernihiv (= Historic Centre of Tchernigov, 9th -13th centuries) (Ukraine)

Author Sjobe
Partaker
#113 | Posted: 12 May 2020 15:35 
Jurre:
The Holy place of worship of Ukonsaari by the Sami people at Inari (Finland)

I wrote something about this site last year. It can be on upcoming Finnish tentative list. There is maybe not much to see on this island but it is an important site for indigenous Sámi people. In the future it might be impossible to land to the island.

Jurre:
Mta-Tusheti (Georgia)

This could be an interesting site. Comparable to Upper Svaneti (Ushguli), and Jeyrakh-Assa (T) in Russia (Vainakh Towers). I do not know, what is the unique thing compared to the aforementioned but this is a mixed site.

Jurre:
Archaeological Site of Priene (Turkey)
Archaeological Site of Sagalassos (Turkey)

In Turkey is a huge amount of archaeological sites belonging to Hellenistic and Roman Period. On Turkish tentative list is only a fraction of them. I think we just have to see first what similar sites there are available and then choose the best ones. I guess all of the Hellenistic / Roman sites on Turkish T list are more or less worth a visit, but Priene is not the best of the bunch. Sagalassos is maybe better of these two. Of Turkish Hellenistic / Roman archaeological sites the most interesting is maybe Kibyra (Wikipedia, Google Image Search). The following T sites are worth a closer look:
- Ancient city of Kibyra
- Archaeological Site of Sagalassos
- Güllük Dagi-Termessos National Park
- Ancient Cities of Lycian Civilization
- The Ancient City of Sardis and the Lydian Tumuli of Bin Tepe
- The Theatre and Aqueducts of the Ancient City of Aspendos

These T sites are maybe less interesting although they are very good archaeological sites:
- Aizanoi Antique City
- Ancient City of Anazarbos
- Ancient City of Stratonikeia
- Archaeological Site of Assos
- Archaeological site of Laodikeia
- Archaeological Site of Perge
- Archaeological Site of Priene
- Archeological Site of Zeugma

Jurre:
Gordion (Turkey)

Gordion is known for the famous legend but the site itself is not spectacular: some tumuli and excavations.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#114 | Posted: 12 May 2020 15:51 | Edited by: nfmungard 
My nopes.
Jurre:
- La Camargue (France) => nice and touristy, but don't see need for a WHS. Maybe lavender based?
- Les villes antiques de la Narbonnaise et leur territoire : Nîmes, Arles, Glanum, aqueducs, via Domitia (France) => Roman France already inscribed.
- Darmstadt Artists' Colony Mathildenhöhe (Germany) => Jugendstil, yeah, but I have seen better.
- Residence Ensemble Schwerin – Cultural Landscape of Romantic Historicism (Germany) => Long time haven't been, but there are plenty of historicsm buildings in Germany. Neuschwanenstein probably the most iconic of those. I am not a fan, though.
- The Augustów Canal (Poland/Belarus) => Nope.

My maybes:
Jurre:
- Historic Centre of Lucca (Italy) => Heard great things but area already dotted with WHS.
- Lake Maggiore and Lake D'Orta lakelands (Italy) => Lovely. Orta has a WHS, though, already. And not sure what this would add.

My yes.
Jurre:
- The fortified hilltop cities of Mdina and Cittadella (Malta) => Definitively.
- Rostov Kremlin (Russia) => Weird that a jewel like that is squeezed into the golden ring area.. I think Golden Ring would make more sense than all the individual towsn.


Author Jurre
Partaker
#115 | Posted: 12 May 2020 18:38 | Edited by: Jurre 
Sjobe:
- The Ancient City of Sardis and the Lydian Tumuli of Bin Tepe

I overlooked that one. But it does really look promising!

Sjobe:
- Ancient Cities of Lycian Civilization

Lycia is already represented with Xanthos-Letoon. But is this an obstacle for the other Lycian cities?

Author Assif
Partaker
#116 | Posted: 13 May 2020 03:29 | Edited by: Assif 
Jurre:
Lycia is already represented with Xanthos-Letoon. But is this an obstacle for the other Lycian cities?

We already have Kaunos with the Dalyan graves confirmed. Maybe it could be extended to include further sites? I would support such an extension, which makes sense to me. There are many good sites with similar features, all within a relatively confined area.

winterkjm:
Newport, Savannah, or Charleston

It probably wouldn't be my choice for top missing, but we are still missing a town representing British colonialism in North America. The only existing example is Lunenburg, but I am positive there should be space for more.

Jurre:
Talking about railway, would a site about the "Engineering of Isambard Kingdom Brunel" be an interesting idea?

Possible sites:
- Thames Tunnel
- Clifton Suspension Bridge
- Maidenhead Railway Bridge
- Royal Albert Bridge
- South Devon Railway engine houses

I would second such a proposal.

winterkjm:
Sjobe:
Ishak Pasha Palace

Sjobe and winterkjm both favour a proposal of this palace. What would make it worthy of top 50? It is beautiful complex and beautifully located, but what is its significance? I am not saying I wouldn't second it, I would just need more information. The TWHS description is laconic and I find it hard to compare it to similar sites (e.g. in Iran).

Author Sjobe
Partaker
#117 | Posted: 13 May 2020 05:37 | Edited by: Sjobe 
Assif:
Sjobe and winterkjm both favour a proposal of this palace. What would make it worthy of top 50? It is beautiful complex and beautifully located, but what is its significance? I am not saying I wouldn't second it, I would just need more information. The TWHS description is laconic and I find it hard to compare it to similar sites (e.g. in Iran).

That is a good question. On my own evaluation of the best Turkish TWHS I was between Yes and Maybe with this one and I'm still a bit unsure. It is a beautiful and imposing complex but partly in ruins and with added glass roofing. Wikipedia tells "The Ishak Pasha Palace is one of the few examples of surviving historical Turkish palaces", and "The palace was depicted on the reverse of the Turkish 100 new lira banknote of 2005–2009", which tells something about appreciation of this site in Turkey. Also our Turkish member count it among top five Turkish T sites.

I found also such citations as "It's one of the very rare examples of the Ottoman time Palace arts that carries characteristics of Persian and Armenian architecture styles as well.", "The palace is one of the rare examples of Ottoman palace structures after the Topkapı and Dolmabahçe palaces in Istanbul. Considered a "külliye," or social complex, rather than a palace, the building is the last monumental structure that was built in the famous Tulip Era of the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century", and "Regarded as one of the masterpieces of the Ottoman era, the palace bears traces of Ottoman, Seljuk and Farsi architecture, which is not surprising given the fact that the construction of the building took 99 years and during this period various cultures and historical figures affected the aesthetic taste on the Ottoman lands."

Can winterkjm add something?

Author wojtek
Partaker
#118 | Posted: 13 May 2020 07:32 
Assif:
winterkjm:
Sjobe:
Ishak Pasha Palace

Sjobe and winterkjm both favour a proposal of this palace. What would make it worthy of top 50? It is beautiful complex and beautifully located, but what is its significance? I am not saying I wouldn't second it, I would just need more information. The TWHS description is laconic and I find it hard to compare it to similar sites (e.g. in Iran).

Been there - the palace is nice but completely empty inside (there are only walls, though I admit carvings are beautiful) and around half of the rooms are without roof (modern glass roof is added). For large Turkish T-list it is certainly above average but not Top 50 Missing imo.

Author Sjobe
Partaker
#119 | Posted: 13 May 2020 08:04 
wojtek:
Been there - the palace is nice but completely empty inside (there are only walls, though I admit carvings are beautiful) and around half of the rooms are without roof (modern glass roof is added). For large Turkish T-list it is certainly above average but not Top 50 Missing imo.

Good to know from someone who has been there. Still, there should be some reason why this site is widely considered that important, at least in Turkey. The building and setting are really beautiful, and that can be one reason.

Wojtek, if you have visited many Turkish T sites, could you highlight something based on your experiences.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#120 | Posted: 13 May 2020 10:46 
Assif:
It probably wouldn't be my choice for top missing, but we are still missing a town representing British colonialism in North America. The only existing example is Lunenburg, but I am positive there should be space for more.

I agree, while this may be a gap for the US, I didn't feel inclined to pursue any proposal for Top Missing.

Charlestown had a strong campaign to be included on the updated 2017 US Tentative List. Though it failed, it will likely try again in the future. Newport also made bids in 2007 for its "Gilded Age" Mansions in 2007 (failed) and then its Colonial Historic District in 2017 (also failed). I think Newport is done and no longer interested.

wojtek:
Been there - the palace is nice but completely empty inside (there are only walls, though I admit carvings are beautiful) and around half of the rooms are without roof (modern glass roof is added). For large Turkish T-list it is certainly above average but not Top 50 Missing imo.

At the time, we add barely scratched the surface with Turkey proposals. I think what is currently proposed and seconded is sufficient. I would defer to someone who has actually been there.

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