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Author Sjobe
Partaker
#61 | Posted: 7 May 2020 06:17 | Edited by: Sjobe 
nfmungard:
Anything in Finnish Laponia which makes sense for Finland?

Well, that is a tricky question. Lakes and lake landscapes are something quintessential in Finnish nature and culture, but as Finnish person I think no one else don't appreciate them anyway, so there is no need to promote them. How Finnish mentality is that :)

About Laponia, or Lapland, it should be larger area or National Park, but I don't know which area would best represent the nature of Finnish Lapland. Anyway, it would be more or less the same than Laponian area WHS of Sweden.

Remember that the current, and probably upcoming, TWHS The Holy place of worship of Ukonsaari by the Sami people at Inari is deep in Lapland and represent the indigenous Sámi people.

Apart from Koli there is another Finnish natural landscape that deserves some praise, and that is in Lapland: Lake Kilpisjärvi and Saana fell. I don't know how much there is natural importance but if we talk about the most iconic Finnish lake landscapes this is absolutely one of those. Google Image Search: Kilpisjärvi, Saana fell.

Author Sjobe
Partaker
#62 | Posted: 7 May 2020 06:33 | Edited by: Sjobe 
winterkjm:
Sjobe:

Colvin:
What's the current status of the Saimaa-Pielinen Lake System proposal on Finland's Tentative list.

I think I don't propose it. See my earlier post.

winterkjm:
Sjobe:
Ishak Pasha Palace

First I'm going to study the sites of Turkey thoroughly, and then maybe get back to it.

Author vantcj1
Partaker
#63 | Posted: 7 May 2020 07:02 | Edited by: vantcj1 
I have been doing some catching up on this (I haven't checked the main European/North American thread, maybe will do it between today and tomorrow). Therefore, I am quite unsure about the proceeding to nominate sites in this region.

However, I have some ideas that may be of interest (focusing for the moment mostly on the US)

nfmungard:
History of Music: Jazz, Blues, RocknRoll

I am thinking of the Muscle Shoals Sound Studio in Sheffield, Alabama where an outstanding number of important records have been recorded, even there are mentions of a "Muscle Shoals Sound". The original studio is in the National Register of Historic Places. There could be a case made for the original Sun Studio in Memphis, Tennessee, where many seminal recordings in the 1950s were made and that is a National Historic Landmark; as well as the former Chess Studios in Chicago, that launched American blues on to a wider public. Of those studios, it seems that most of them passed through periods in which they ceased to be functioning studios, but they have been restored to their original layout and equipment. I don´t know if something of note remains in Tin Pan Alley, New York City.

winterkjm:
- Death Valley National Park
- Joshua Tree National Park
- Anza-Borrego Desert State Park
- Mojave Desert National Preserve
- Mojave Trails National Monument
- Sand to Snow National Monument
- Santa Rosa and San Jacinto Mountains National Monument

I am in favor of a serial nomination of the most significative components. Definitely Death Valley NP and Johua Tree NP are among those.

winterkjm:
Colonial sites

For me, clearly Savannah (GA), Charleston (SC), Annapolis (MD) and Newport (RI) take the lead here. Williamsburg (VI) could be argued and is stunning, but I understand part of it is a reconstruction, so I don't think Icomos would see that very positively. Additionally, it is practically a "colonial era theme park".

Outside of English colonial sites, I think there is a possible site of Great Potential: the Mississipi river French settlements of Ste.Genevieve (MO) and Kaskaskia (IL), particularly their XVIII-early XIX century substantial remains. Ste. Genevieve is regarded as the "the first organized European settlement west of the Mississippi River in present-day Missouri", it even has a designated historic district with buildings from the age of French colonization. The remains in Kaskaskia and surroundings are less substantial, specially because most of the town (which came to be the first capital of Illinois) was swallowed up by the Mississipi river, but still the Pierre Menard house and the Creole house, as well as the archaeological sites of Fort Kaskaskia and Fort de Chartres (partly rebuilt), in its vicinity, are witnesses to that era.

Regarding
winterkjm:
Science/Space

Why not the historical parts of Los Alamos National Laboratory (rather than the insubstantial Trinity Site). A controversial nomination, for sure, and one that the US Government would not let happen, but one of great historic importance.

winterkjm:
City Planning/Historic Districts

Regarding 20th century Urbanism, I think Columbus, Indiana is definitely something that could merit WH-status. "The relatively small city has provided a unique place for noted Modern architecture and public art, commissioning numerous works since the mid-20th century; the annual program Exhibit Columbus celebrates this legacy"

winterkjm:
Modern Post-WWII Architecture

I have five proposals. In order of merit:
1. Major works of Louis Kahn: simply you can't miss one of the great masters of Modern Architecture, together with Le Corbusier, Walter Gropius, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe and Alvar Aalto. These would include his most accomplished works, namely:
-Richards Medical Research Laboratories (Philadelphia, PA)
-The Salk Institute (La Jolla, CA)
-Trenton Bath House (Trenton, NJ)
-Yale University Art Gallery (New Haven, Ct)
-First Unitarian Church (Rochester, NY)
-Indian Institute of Management (Ahmedabad, India)
-Phillips Exeter Academy Library (Exeter, NH)
-Kimbell Art Museum (Ft.Worth, Texas)
-Jatiyo Sangshad Bhavan (Dhaka, Bangladesh). I understand it was nominated in the Asian-Pacific thread, I don't remember if it was seconded, but it could be subsumed into this nomination.

2. Works of Mies van der Rohe in the US (3 select buildings): after going to the U.S., Mies explored and deepened his purist vision of modern architecture, taking it to newer extremes. It also reflects the triumph of Modern Architecture after WWII and how it became the architectural language adopted throughout all the world.
-S.R. Crown Hall (Chicago, IL): nothing short of revolutionary, it was a first in its kind in architectural history. Mies designed most of IIT, but this building takes the lead.
-Farnsworth house (Plano, IL): Tugendhat house is extremely full of ornament, in comparison. It simply is one of the most minimalistic and famous houses in architectural history.
-Seagram building (New York City, NY): it could be argued that the evolution from modern architecture to "international style", a style that became repeated throughout the world and redefined cities from the 1950s onwards, was spearheaded by this skyscraper. It sits in front of the Lever House (not by Mies, but SOM), another extremely influential skyscraper.

3. Vanna Ventury House (Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia, PA): by Robert Venturi and designed for his mother, this 1964 house singlehandedly launched Postmodernism, a movement that criticized Modern Architecture to its core, and reflecting the language of "complexity and contradiction" that Venturi proposed in the book "Complexity and Contradiction in Architecture". It is considered one of the most influential works of the 20th century.

Author vantcj1
Partaker
#64 | Posted: 7 May 2020 07:11 | Edited by: vantcj1 
Continuing from the previous post:

4. Major works of Richard Meier: an extremely influential live architect (a founder of the New York Five Group, that also includes renowned architect Peter Eisenman), who relaunched Modern Architecture in the 60s, when it was under severe criticism. His extremely cohesive design language has been extremely influential, with its predominance of pure geometry and the color white. He has a much larger set of oeuvres than Louis Kahn, but I just select the most iconic (which are also some of the first ones).
-The Getty Center (Los Angeles, CA): it could be a WH on its own, for how it relates to its site and the urban design of the compound. It is pretty much a "gesamtkunstwerk" of the 80s and 90s.
-Smith House (Darien, CT): the house that started it all.
-The Atheneum (New Harmony, IN): New Harmony is extremely historically important, as the site of Robert Owen's ideal colony (after he left New Lanark), though I don't think there's much surviving from those times. However, the Atheneum is a significant monument.
-Stadhaus Ulm (Ulm, Germany): I consider it one of the most accomplished modern architectural insertions on a historic center, right next to the cathedral.

5. Two major works of Richard Neutra: of course, I see you considered the Case Studies in Los Angeles (Eames House is the star, definitely), but the Austrian Richard Neutra redefined modern life in sunny Socal in the 1930s and 1940s.
-Lovell House (Los Angeles, CA)
-Kaufmann desert house (Palm Springs, CA)

FredericM:
Sites mentioned I considered or find interesting:
Big Bend NP
Guadalupe Mountains
Devils Tower
Crater Lake National Park
Johnson Wax Headquarters

I concur. I found it odd that Johnson Wax Headquarters was not nominated on a first phase of FLW sites. Crater Lake is outstanding as a crater-lake caldera (just like Taal).

Colvin:
Lowell, it's one of the US mill towns that New Lanark reminded me of

In full support.

FredericM:
Colvin:
Alaska

Why not Katmai National Park, the place of one of the biggest eruptions of the 20th century, that created "The Valley of Ten-Thousand Smokes". Now, most of the park is a wilderness and has a high biodiversity, and natural phenomena there include the migration of the sockeye salmon.

FredericM:
As I mentioned somewhere else, I would favor a serial nomination encompassing many key parks in between Arches and Zion.

I definitely believe you can't single out the Utah parks: I would make a single nomination of Zion, Canyonlands, Arches, Capitol Reef and Bryce Canyon NPs and it would be a killer WHS. It definitely has my support.

Colvin:
Missouri
Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site

Just a comment, Cahokia lies on the other side of the river, in Illinois.

I think that's all for the moment, sorry for the long post.

Author Assif
Partaker
#65 | Posted: 7 May 2020 07:43 
vantcj1:
Major works of Louis Kahn:

I agree Louis Kahn is worthy of inscription.

Sjobe:
Apart from Koli there is another Finnish natural landscape that deserves some praise

How different is the Finnish lake landscape from the one in neighbouring (Russian) Karelia? Russia has the Valamo Archipelago on its T list as a mixed site.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#66 | Posted: 7 May 2020 12:37 
Sjobe:
I would be in favor of it but it is at the end of its road.

That's too bad about the Saimaa-Pielinen Lake System TWHS falling through. Do you think that another lake system being proposed, such as Koli, which you mentioned earlier, would have a better chance at getting support in Finland? I certainly understand how the lakes would be considered a part of the Finnish lifestyle; there are some US states like Minnesota and Wisconsin where lake culture is very important, too.

vantcj1:
Therefore, I am quite unsure about the proceeding to nominate sites in this region.


So this thread is mainly to use as a sounding board to discuss ideas for proposals, while official proposals are made in the main Europe-North America thread. Els updates a spreadsheet regularly with all the proposals, and marks them with a 2 if they have been seconded; you can find a link to the spreadsheet in posts like this one.

As an American, I'm trying to limit now the proposals I put forward for the United States, so as not to be partisan. Feel free to put forward whatever proposals you view as worthwhile, particularly from the architecture side, since you have that background.

vantcj1:
There could be a case made for the original Sun Studio in Memphis, Tennessee, where many seminal recordings in the 1950s were made and that is a National Historic Landmark

Good call on Sun Studio. I suppose it would depend on whether a country wants to highlight a particular type of music if they were to consider highlighting a particular historic recording studio. The US certainly has chops with music history, and they could go the route of jazz, blues, bluegrass, country, Motown, R&B, early rock and roll, etc.

vantcj1:
For me, clearly Savannah (GA), Charleston (SC), Annapolis (MD) and Newport (RI) take the lead here.

If you want to propose any of those, you may find some support. I agree with you that Williamsburg, VA, may not pass muster because of some of its reconstruction.

vantcj1:
Why not Katmai National Park, the place of one of the biggest eruptions of the 20th century, that created "The Valley of Ten-Thousand Smokes". Now, most of the park is a wilderness and has a high biodiversity, and natural phenomena there include the migration of the sockeye salmon.

Excellent suggestion. I'm not sure how it would hold up against the already inscribed Volcanoes of Kamchatka, which has similar geologic features and biodiversity.

vantcj1:
Just a comment, Cahokia lies on the other side of the river, in Illinois.

You are of course right -- it is across the Mississippi in Illinois, and I deserve whatever ridicule I receive from my friends in St. Louis. Unfortunately I can't go back and edit the post now.

Author Sjobe
Partaker
#67 | Posted: 7 May 2020 13:12 | Edited by: Sjobe 
Assif:
How different is the Finnish lake landscape from the one in neighbouring (Russian) Karelia? Russia has the Valamo Archipelago on its T list as a mixed site.

Valamo Archipelago is no longer on Russian T list. But yes, it is very similar compared to Finnish lake landscape. Valamo Archipelago is located in the Lake Ladoga which is the largest lake in Europe. Half of the Lake Ladoga was inside Finnish borders until 1940 or 1944. Valamo Archipelago TWHS relied on the original Valamo Monastery island which is of great importance to the Orthodox community of Finland. When Soviets attacked the monastery it was evacuated and relocated inside the current borders of Finland to so called New Valamo.

In Russian Karelia is a former Finnish lake which is one of the most beautiful and untouched, Paanajärvi National Park. With the adjacent Finnish Oulanka National Park they form a great whole protecting Karelian Taiga habitat.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#68 | Posted: 7 May 2020 14:05 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I would like to share some resources in relation to potential nominations from the US. If your proposed site is not protected within any of these levels of designation for cultural and natural values, it probably is not worth considering. The only exception to this would be very recent sites (post-WWII) which may at this point, not be recognized yet for its historical significance.

1st List of US National Parks (62)

2nd NPS Find a Park (Directory) or the Full List of National Park System Official Units (419)

3rd List of US National Monuments (128)

4th List of National Historic Landmarks by State (2,596)

5th National Natural Landmarks (Directory) (599)

There is significant overlap here with many National Monuments being official National Park units, several National Historic Landmarks or National Natural Landmarks located inside National Parks and so on.

*A lower form of protection is the National Register of Historic Places (tens of thousands of properties), which is typically not recognized by the US in world heritage nominations as an adequate designation at the National Level. For example the National Park Service made sure all FLW components were designated as National Historic Landmarks in advance of its submission to ICOMOS.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#69 | Posted: 7 May 2020 14:21 | Edited by: winterkjm 
vantcj1:
5. Two major works of Richard Neutra: of course, I see you considered the Case Studies in Los Angeles (Eames House is the star, definitely), but the Austrian Richard Neutra redefined modern life in sunny Socal in the 1930s and 1940s.
-Lovell House (Los Angeles, CA)
-Kaufmann desert house (Palm Springs, CA)

Both homes are privately owned and not National Historic Landmarks (though I think they would likely meet the requirements). The only Richard Neutra property that is designated at this level is the Neutra VDL Research House in Silver Lake and is surrounded by another 3-4 Neutra designed homes. While I love Nuetra's design, it would likely be a weaker nomination than the 2 most iconic Case Study Homes. LA is a modernist dream landscape, with FLW, Lloyd Wright (son of FLW), Neutra, Schindler, Case Study Homes and more. Though it might be prudent to focus on potential nominations that are protected at the national level and open to the public? Otherwise, we get a "Stoclet House" situation which currently stands at 1.57 rating and hardly can be considered Top Missing!

vantcj1:
-The Salk Institute (La Jolla, CA)

Thanks for sharing this, very interesting and I never heard of it! I'll plan a visit next Spring, when hopefully these type of tours (guided or self-guided) are available again.

vantcj1:
-The Getty Center (Los Angeles, CA)

Completed in 1997 and while there is so much to be admired by the overall complex, I am curious to hear more about how "influential" this building is, both in the US and Internationally?

Author FredericM
Partaker
#70 | Posted: 7 May 2020 16:19 
Colvin:
In regard to this site, how different is it from the Sirmilik National Park and Tallurutiup Imanga National Marine Conservation Area that you already proposed? Are the landforms (also in the Arctic cordillera) or fauna distinctly different? Should it be an extension?

Interesting question. Torngats are far more south than Sirmilik, but biodiversity might be similar. I think that marine life is more exceptional around Sirmilik. Caribou population are also different. I'm not very familiar with geology, but Torngats seem to be of greater interest. And I think those mountains are more stunning and therefore more appropriate for criteria (vii). Torngats are probably not Top Missing, but I think both deserve inscription on their own.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#71 | Posted: 7 May 2020 16:26 
vantcj1:
-Seagram building (

I would second that one. It's an iconic building. I once read that Mies himself cheated according to his own standards as he applied extra, non functional decorations. However, this could also be included in Skyline of New York.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#72 | Posted: 7 May 2020 16:43 
vantcj1:
2. Works of Mies van der Rohe in the US (3 select buildings):

I would also add 860–880 Lake Shore Drive Apartments to a Mies van der Rohe site.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#73 | Posted: 7 May 2020 21:19 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Spread of International Style Modernism to the United States

(Mies van der Rohe Components) 3
- Farnsworth House (IL - 1951) *National Historic Landmark - the Farnsworth House has continued to receive wide critical acclaim as a masterpiece of the modernist style
- S. R. Crown Hall (IL - 1956) *National Historic Landmark - widely regarded as one of Mies van der Rohe's masterpieces, Crown Hall, completed in 1956, is one of the most architecturally significant buildings of the 20th century Modernist movement.
- Mies van der Rohe Residential District, Lafayette Park (MI - 1956) *National Historic Landmark - the largest collection of Mies van der Rohe buildings in the world, exemplifying the International Style.

Potential addition:
Jurre:
I would also add 860–880 Lake Shore Drive Apartments to a Mies van der Rohe site. *Pending National Historic Landmark Designation

(Richard Neutra Components) 3
- Neutra VDL Studio and Residences (CA - 1932, 1964) *National Historic Landmark - house's strength came from its temporal quality: Light, water and air were meant to induce a wholesome life. The Research House later became the focus of a cluster of ten Neutra-designed houses on Argent Place overlooking Silver Lake.
- Lovell House (CA - 1929) *Pending National Historic Landmark Designation - often described as the first steel frame house in the United States.
- Kaufmann Desert House (CA - 1946) *Pending National Historic Landmark Designation - one of the most important examples of International style architecture in the United States.

What about some type of hybrid nomination like this? I would defer to your architectural knowledge vantcj1, yet based on the multiple attempts for nominations connected to Le Corbusier and Frank Lloyd Wright, there should be a strong theme that demonstrates a major contribution to Modern Architecture, not just a single architect's magnum opus, no? I think this formation would be able to highlight how the spread of International Style Modernism in the United States (largely) originated though European architects who emigrated to the United States in the 20's and 30's. In addition, both architects who met in 1930 were partial to Minimalist designs and were both featured in the 1932 MoMA exhibition, called "Modern Architecture: International Exhibition".

"His (Mies) mature buildings made use of modern materials such as industrial steel and plate glass to define interior spaces, as also conducted by other modernist architects in the 1920s and 1930s such as Richard Neutra."

"The International Style can be traced to buildings designed by a small group of modernists, of which the major figures includes Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, Jacobus Oud, Le Corbusier, Richard Neutra and Philip Johnson."

I also show preference toward components that are designated at the national level and can be publicly visited.

Author mrayers
Partaker
#74 | Posted: 8 May 2020 09:37 | Edited by: mrayers 
Colvin:
FredericM:
That trail (like the mountain range) actually goes up to Newfoundland.

Yup -- that's the International Appalachian Trail extension. I had just been suggesting the original one, but the international one covers awesome terrain, too.

Even more, in addition to the Appalachians in the US and Newfoundland, segments of mountains in Morocco, Scotland, and possibly even:

nfmungard:
* Same goes for the mountains between Sweden and Norway.

were all part of the Central Pangean Mountains, formed ~300-500 million years ago, and so represent the oldest major mountain system on Earth.

Selected segements of the IAT would make a terrific transnational WHS, imho, though perhaps for the Top 50 2025 version.

(Colvin's link again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Appalachian_Trail#Extension_to_Europe_and_North_Africa )

Author mrayers
Partaker
#75 | Posted: 8 May 2020 09:51 
Colvin:
nfmungard:
I seem to recall that the Pacific North West had a distinct Native American culture

Colvin:
It does, but one of the challenges of the Pacific Northwest (similar to southern Chile, actually) is that the indigenous population used a lot of wood, which doesn't last well. First Nations culture from the region is recognized with SGang Gwaay, and there are concerns about how long the Haida totem poles there will last.

It's a shame that what Colvin said is true, because the early societies of that region really were interesting and unique. Because of the particular set of geographic and climatic circumstances found along the Pacific coast from southeastern Alaska, to extreme northern California, which resulted in a stable, year-round food supply, the societies there were among the few, perhaps only, known peoples able to live in permanent towns and villages, yet still practice a hunter-gatherer style of subsistence.

It would be great to come up with a way to credit that in a future WHS, but I am not sure how that could be done.

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