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Top 50 Missing - 2020 version - Whiteboard

 
 
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Author FredericM
Partaker
#31 | Posted: 5 May 2020 19:06 
I'm probably among the community member with the fewest Europe travel, but here are some quick suggestions:

Croatia has some potential for natural sites I think. Maybe Velebit mountain or Kornati archipelago. Does Durmitor fully encompass the OUV of the Dinaric Alps?

For Bosnia, what about Sarajevo? It seemed really cool to me when I visited, but I'm unsure how unique it is...

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#32 | Posted: 5 May 2020 19:09 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Colvin:
Wisconsin discussions to winterkjm, though, since that is his home turf.

Growing up here and visiting fairly often there are only a handful of places that could be considered.

- Devils Lake State Park, which could include the Ice Age Trail, however this is too similar with the already proposed Ice Age site.
- Apostle Islands National Lakeshore - the current Lake Superior National Marine Conservation Area is better and I would only consider this an extension.
- Astor Fur Warehouse - potential to include in proposed Fur Trading nomination.
- Milwaukee Brewing History (serial nomination) - Pabst, Miller, but are these best representations of the US Brewing Industry? St. Louis is more important.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#33 | Posted: 5 May 2020 19:15 | Edited by: Jurre 
nfmungard:
California has Joshua Tree NP

I have proposed Death Valley NP, and it has been seconded already. But I'm more and more thinking of expanding the Death Valley proposal to include Joshua Tree NP.

Death Valley NP has been grouped with Joshua Tree NP and two others in the Mojave and Colorado Deserts Biosphere Reserve.

I would propose to expand Death Valley NP to "Mojave and Colorado Deserts", including Death Valley NP (petroglyphs, Death Valley itself and Racetrack Playa), Joshua tree NP (with the iconic joshua trees) and Anza-Borrego Desert State Park.

This way, the proposal covers the Mojave and Colorado Deserts as a comprehensive whole, while also being located relatively close geographically.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#34 | Posted: 5 May 2020 19:56 | Edited by: Jurre 
I'd like to propose a Russia site too, that's again centered on the Amur region.

Sikhote-Alin is already a WHS, and my proposal of Land of the Leopard NP has already been seconded.

I'd suggest a proposal focusing on the Lower Amur basin, which none of the two sites focus on. Sikhote-Alin is more mountainous and is home to the Amur Tiger, while the Land of the Leopard NP focuses on the endangered Amur Leopard.

The reason I'd focus on the Amur basin:
- "Amur-Heilong - Refuge for Amur leopard and tiger" is a Global Priority Place. Leopard and tiger are the focus of the two other sites, but none focuses on the Amur itself.
- the "Russian Far East rivers and wetlands (China, Mongolia, Russia)" are cited among the "Global 200: Freshwater ecoregions".
- Wetlands are still underrepresented on the WHL.

As the site "Lower Amur basin", I'd propose a serial nomination of several nature reserves. I'd choose:
- Anyuysky National Park: a huge park which covers the basin of the Anyuy River. The park is important because it creates an ecological corridor from the low floodplain of the Amur, to the high forested mountains of the Sikhote-Alin. The park is a critical component of the network of protected areas in the middle and lower Amur, particularly because it integrates a continuous habitat from river floodplains, through valley-mountain sub-taiga of Mongolian oak and Korean pine, to mountain ridges. The endangered Amur tiger is a resident species of the park, as are most of the mountain species of the northern Sikhote-Alin. The lower floodplains are important for their support for migratory birds.
- Bolon Nature Reserve: located on the Middle Amur River lowlands adjacent to the south-west of Lake Bolon. The reserve covers the wetlands of international importance. Swamps occupy 80% of the territory. Spring and autumn migrations bring an estimated 1.2 million to the reserve.
- Bureya Nature Reserve: The territory is one of mountain tundra, rivers and lakes, and taiga forests. It includes the headwaters of the left and right tributaries of the Bureya River, part of the lower Amur River basin. The headwaters of many streams are glacial cirques, and lower levels along the rivers feature floodplains and lakes. The reserve is important for large mammals including bear, wolverine and sable.

I'm doing the proposal here, as I'm not sure how the community thinks about it. I think it would merit a place on the WHL, as it ticks several boxes: wetlands of international importance, a Global priority place and a Global 200 river ecoregion, importance for wildlife, and just stunningy beautiful nature.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#35 | Posted: 5 May 2020 20:56 
nfmungard:
Alabama has the Tuskegee University. I think this is important. Maybe only nationally.

winterkjm:
nfmungard:
Alabama

Nothing worthy of inscription here except possibly the Civil Rights Era sites in Montgomery, Selma, and Birmingham.

For Alabama, what about:
- Moundville Archaeological Site: Extensive archaeological investigation has shown that the site was the political and ceremonial center of a regionally organized Mississippian culture chiefdom polity between the 11th and 16th centuries. Moundville is the second-largest site in the United States of the classic Middle Mississippian era, after Cahokia in Illinois.

But maybe that last sentence scraps it from our quest? Cahokia was bigger and is already on the WHL.

- Marshall Space Flight Center: A site connected to the early history of space flight.

Author watkinstravel
Partaker
#36 | Posted: 5 May 2020 21:13 
I have never been there but is there nothing at Kitty Hawk? I feel that both general aviation and space flight are 2 separate industries that should be looked at.
Perhaps a bit more controversial but does anyone know if there are any historic oil wells or petroleum-related sites still around either in the US or Caucasus?
I've been to Rushmore twice, it is impressive but far too national for serious consideration in my opinion. I better start catching up on the other thread before I say any more...

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#37 | Posted: 5 May 2020 21:21 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Jurre:
Death Valley NP has been grouped with Joshua Tree NP and two others in the Mojave and Colorado Deserts Biosphere Reserve.

I have long wished for such a world heritage site called: Mojave and Colorado Deserts (Flickr album). I have travelled all of these areas extensively.

The idea here would be a massive desert preserve that each component is more or less interconnected.

- Death Valley National Park
- Joshua Tree National Park
- Anza-Borrego Desert State Park
- Mojave Desert National Preserve
- Mojave Trails National Monument
- Sand to Snow National Monument
- Santa Rosa and San Jacinto Mountains National Monument

Yet, it might not make sense for such a proposal. Not sure if this is how we want to approach this Top Missing project, but its common sense (streamlined proposals vs unrealistically complex). This complex natural site (which I have great love for), would be far simpler if the most important component is recognized and that is Death Valley. Being so well-known and iconic, when users vote on Top Missing its immediately recognizable for its OUV. The name Death Valley will be far more "knowable" than Mojave and Colorado Deserts. This is the byproduct of serializing more famous sites/name with less known properties.

It's very easy to oversaturate proposals from one country, therefore insuring none of that specific gap is recognized on the Top Missing List. There are 61 official National Parks in the United States, about a dozen are already inscribed, with another dozen that could arguably make a strong case. This is why it might not be worth selecting Bryce and Zion, on top of Arches. They will all split votes and not be recognized. We already have 4 deserts which represent the US (Death Valley, Petrified Forest, White Sands, and Arches). These are all icons that have great potential for world heritage status alone, without additional components.

I love the idea of a massive protected parkland, incorporating all these incredible parks, but sometimes simpler is better. Perhaps not surprisingly, the California public has no idea that there is a UNESCO Biosphere Reserve called Mojave and Colorado Deserts, but nearly everyone knows of Death Valley. We have had such discussions on this forum in the past, do you select the best castle or ten "representative castles"?

Author Colvin
Partaker
#38 | Posted: 5 May 2020 22:27 | Edited by: Colvin 
FredericM:
Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is missing there.

Right -- it wasn't listed on the official spreadsheet, which is why I missed it. I'll add it onto my list, but you may want to check with Els to see if she can add it onto the spreadsheet.

FredericM:
That trail (like the mountain range) actually goes up to Newfoundland.

Yup -- that's the International Appalachian Trail extension. I had just been suggesting the original one, but the international one covers awesome terrain, too.

FredericM:
Maybe Delaware Bay is better as it is a major site for migratory birds and spawning of horseshoe crabs. I was also looking for sites on barrier islands of Virginia and North Carolina but couldn't find a satisfying one.

I've been to both, and I think the Chesapeake Bay is the better of the two. They both are Ramsar wetlands; I just am not sure if either can compete on the world stage.

FredericM:
If such a site (re: maple sugaring) is ever nominated, it should be in Qu├ębec.

I agree with you there.

FredericM:
What would you think of the Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia?

Excellent suggestion, since it had a global sociological impact. I think that would be an excellent one to put forward.

winterkjm:
Growing up here and visiting fairly often there are only a handful of places that could be considered.

Thanks for your thoughts on Wisconsin -- I think they make sense. Agree about the Apostle Islands, and the Ice Age Trail sounds fascinating; I love the terrain of the state (I had a good, but brief, tour last summer on two visits, going from the northwest down to Madison with a friend, and then later exploring the Fox River Valley with another friend; the bluffs on the border between Wisconsin and Minnesota are beautiful, too). Thinking about the brewery aspect, I might lean toward the recommendation that the Europeans have a more important history.

In regard to the fur trade recommendation, thanks for the suggestion! I'd considered whether to include sites related to Astor's American Fur Company, but I decided to just stick with some sites related to the Canadian side when I submitted it. I would love to have included sites like Fort Vancouver or Fort Astoria on the West Coast, since that was the Pacific terminus, but there is really nothing authentic left there. The same goes with the Chauvin Historical Museum in Tadoussac, where the French fur trade first started in Quebec. I included some representative sites, but I'm sure there would be others that are worth considering as well, and this might be one of them.

Jurre:
I'd suggest a proposal focusing on the Lower Amur basin

I love the idea for a Lower Amur River Basin site, and you chose some good potential components. I'd say go for it.

Jurre:
For Alabama, what about:
- Moundville Archaeological Site:

In addition to Cahokia Mounds, the US just recently inscribed the Monumental Earthworks of Poverty Point in nearby Louisiana, so I'm not sure how another mound site from that region would fare. The US is moving onto Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks in Ohio next.

Jurre:
- Marshall Space Flight Center: A site connected to the early history of space flight.

Great thinking, but I would say the strongest case to be made in the US for space is for the Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida, where the early days of the US space program had all of its milestones.

watkinstravel:
I have never been there but is there nothing at Kitty Hawk?

I've been there a lot, since the Outer Banks is a popular vacation destination on the East Coast. There is a monument to the Wright Brothers Flight atop a hill next to the field they used for their controlled flight. There are markers on the ground to show how far each of their flights went, and the markers are visible from the top of the hill for context. But so far as original infrastructure -- you're right, there really isn't anything remaining. I think the markers tell the story well enough, though.

watkinstravel:
I've been to Rushmore twice, it is impressive but far too national for serious consideration in my opinion.

I agree.

Author Sjobe
Partaker
#39 | Posted: 6 May 2020 01:38 
FredericM:
For Bosnia, what about Sarajevo? It seemed really cool to me when I visited, but I'm unsure how unique it is...

As for Sarajevo they focus strongly on the "symbol of universal multiculture" aspect. I really like Sarajevo as a city and a place to visit, but is it that unique - maybe not. You can have a same type of multiculture feeling for example in Beirut.

So that is why I left that out from my list. But if someone proposes Sarajevo I could at least consider supporting it.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#40 | Posted: 6 May 2020 05:19 
Colvin:
I've been there a lot, since the Outer Banks is a popular vacation destination on the East Coast. There is a monument to the Wright Brothers Flight atop a hill next to the field they used for their controlled flight. There are markers on the ground to show how far each of their flights went, and the markers are visible from the top of the hill for context. But so far as original infrastructure -- you're right, there really isn't anything remaining. I think the markers tell the story well enough, though.

If there's othing left, it might be difficult to inscribe it as a site.

In the same line of thinking: this is maybe why battlefields are hard to inscribe as well. Waterloo from my country, for example, was the site of one of the most iconic battles in Europe's history and has entered language as a word to denote a crusking defeat. Yet, apart from the mound with the lion, there is nothing there anymore. That's probably why the Waterloo battlefield will never make it onto the WHL, despite being an iconic and historically important place.

The main question is: do you accept sites where something important happened in the past, even though (near to) nothing is left of that event?

Author Sjobe
Partaker
#41 | Posted: 6 May 2020 07:10 | Edited by: Sjobe 
About the tentative list of Turkey, on our WhatsApp group is a member named Can Sarica who has visited almost all of the tentative sites of Turkey. He has a following opinion:

"In my opinion, Twhs with near zero chance for inscription are;
1)malabadi bridge
2)ismail fakirullah tomb
3)basilica therma
4)kultepe kanesh
5)eshabi kehf
6)anazarbos
7)yesemek
8)gaziantep underground water
9)zeynel abidin mosque (may be only together with mardin)
10)arslantepe
11)harput

Below 50% chance;
1)st paul's church
2)van fortress
3)sumela monestary

Between 50-90%;
1)rock tombs of pontic kings
2)anatolian seljuks madrasahs
3)zeugma
4)harran and sanliurfa

More than 90%;
1)vespasianus tunel and hatay
2)mardin
3)akdamar church
4)ahlat cemetery
5)ishak pasha palace

I havent been in nigde, niksar, ballica cave, kizilirmak"

Author Jurre
Partaker
#42 | Posted: 6 May 2020 07:56 
winterkjm:
Yet, it might not make sense for such a proposal. Not sure if this is how we want to approach this Top Missing project, but its common sense (streamlined proposals vs unrealistically complex). This complex natural site (which I have great love for), would be far simpler if the most important component is recognized and that is Death Valley. Being so well-known and iconic, when users vote on Top Missing its immediately recognizable for its OUV. The name Death Valley will be far more "knowable" than Mojave and Colorado Deserts. This is the byproduct of serializing more famous sites/name with less known properties.

I understand the reasoning and I do agree with it. Of course, in this case, nominating Death Valley means no nomination for Joshua Tree. But Death Valley vertainly is the more iconic of the two.

Author jonathanfr
Partaker
#43 | Posted: 6 May 2020 08:55 | Edited by: jonathanfr 
Jurre:
In the same line of thinking: this is maybe why battlefields are hard to inscribe as well. Waterloo from my country, for example, was the site of one of the most iconic battles in Europe's history and has entered language as a word to denote a crusking defeat. Yet, apart from the mound with the lion, there is nothing there anymore. That's probably why the Waterloo battlefield will never make it onto the WHL, despite being an iconic and historically important place.

In my country (France), we rather use the word Berezina to describe a defeat.

Perhaps an application "Fields of Napoleonic battles: a victory (Austerlitz), a defeat (Waterloo)" could satisfy the countries concerned by these old wars.

We could also consider a serial transnational inscription around Napoleon (the two battlefields mentioned above, his birthplace in Ajaccio in Corsica, his tomb at the Invalides in Paris, the Arc de Triomphe de l'Etoile, the islands exiles (Elbe, Saint Helena), the castle of Malmaison, the Napoleonic museum on the island of Aix ...)

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#44 | Posted: 6 May 2020 09:16 
jonathanfr:
Perhaps an application "Fields of Napoleonic battles: a victory (Austerlitz), a defeat (Waterloo)" could satisfy the countries concerned by these old war

Don't see much reason to inscribe these.

Jurre:
I understand the reasoning and I do agree with it. Of course, in this case, nominating Death Valley means no nomination for Joshua Tree. But Death Valley vertainly is the more iconic of the two.

Can't really judge which one is better. I think it would help to think of California as a separate country (it kind of is). Would Germany nominate both?

My last ideas for the USA:
* Immigrant heritage. China Towns, German Towns, ...
* History of Music: Jazz, Blues, RocknRoll
* Prohibition era sites.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#45 | Posted: 6 May 2020 10:36 | Edited by: Colvin 
Jurre:
The main question is: do you accept sites where something important happened in the past, even though (near to) nothing is left of that event?

Yup -- that was the main issue ICOMOS had as well when they looked at the Wright Brothers National Memorial in 1981. That's why the US is pursuing the Dayton Aviation Sites in Ohio, where the Wright Brothers did most of their work creating and testing aircraft, as the primary site. The only question is whether they would pursue the inclusion of Kitty Hawk with that nomination.

nfmungard:
My last ideas for the USA:
* Immigrant heritage. China Towns, German Towns, ...
* History of Music: Jazz, Blues, RocknRoll
* Prohibition era sites.

My favorite site that the US is pursuing for immigrant heritage is Ellis Island. This would be a rather ironic site for the current government to pursue, unfortunately.

While I like the idea of Chinatowns, I've seen them in many cities around the world. In fact, the world's oldest recognized Chinatown is in the Philippines. What do you think is unique about these towns in the US?

I really like the idea about the history of music, but I'd be curious about what should be inscribed. Motown in Detroit seems rather significant, and at the other end of the spectrum is the Grand Old Opry in Nashville. I wonder how many clubs, bars, and recording studios integral to the history of jazz, Motown, rock-and-roll, and country music are still authentic to the timeperiod for which they'd be recognized. For that matter, in the 1960s Hamburg hosted perhaps the 20th century's most famous band -- anything worth preserving there?

I'm not particularly enthused about Prohibition sites, but maybe that's just me. What do you think is worth highlighting with these?

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