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Top 50 - Europe and North America [2020]

 
 
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Author winterkjm
Partaker
#61 | Posted: 2 May 2020 13:25 
nfmungard:
The Mall of Washington DC, USA, DC
OUV: Monumental government buildings lined along a central axis, the Mall.

This is an incredible place, but some of its universal value may have been diminished by the trend over the last three decades to include more and more war memorials. This has been exacerbated even more with proposals being pushed or green-lighted under the current president.

Read this article "A wave of war memorials is coming to D.C. Are we all at peace with that?"

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#62 | Posted: 2 May 2020 13:52 | Edited by: winterkjm 
nfmungard:
Then make it a Canadian or cross natural proposal.

Full Name of Site: Lake Superior National Marine Conservation Area
Country: Canada, United States of America (transnational)
TWHS? No
Short description of site: Lake Superior National Marine Conservation Area is a National Marine Conservation Area (NMCA) on the north shore of Lake Superior in Ontario, and is a unit of the national park system. Established on September 1, 2015 it is the largest freshwater marine protected area in the world. The conservation area extends 140 kilometres (87 mi) eastward from Thunder Bay, from Thunder Cape in the west, at the tip of Sleeping Giant Provincial Park, to Bottle Point in the east, and stretches southward to the Canada-US border, linking with Isle Royale National Park. The area is home to numerous species including herons, peregrine falcons, and bald eagles. The spawning and schooling waters of deep coldwater fish, such as whitefish, lake herring, walleye, and lake trout will be protected by this zone. Caribou foraging and calving areas are located on shore. Lake Superior is home to about 70 fish species and is the largest fresh water lake (by surface area) in the world.
Resources: Lake Superior National Marine Conservation Area (Wikipedia), Isle Royale National Park (Wikipedia), Sleeping Giant Provincial Park (Wikipedia)
Criteria: Natural
Outstanding universal value / comparative analysis: Lake Baikal (Russia)

Author Colvin
Partaker
#63 | Posted: 2 May 2020 13:59 
Assif:
Site: South Georgia Island
Country: UK

I like this site, and it reminds me of Shackleton (who happens to be buried there) and Antarctic exploration. Antarctica doesn't fall into a UNESCO region since it is not owned by any country and falls underneath the Antarctic Treaty System. Still, since I don't know where else to put it, here is an Antarctic proposal:

Full Name of Site: Sites of Antarctic Exploration
Country: United Kingdom (possibly New Zealand due to its claimed oversight of Ross Island?)
TWHS? No
Short description of site: The Heroic Age of Antarctic Exploration lasted from the late 19th century through the First World War, as European countries launched expeditions to reach the South Pole and to traverse the Antarctic continent. These expeditions inspired the mapping and scientific study of Antarctica, which is now carried out by researchers who conduct their studies year-round. The most famed pioneers of Antarctic exploration were Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen, who first reached the South Pole in 1911, and British explorers Robert Falcon Scott and Sir Ernest Shackleton. There are no significant remains from Amundsen's 1911 expedition. Scott built two huts that still remain on Ross Island and were used by his party as a base to winter in Antarctica on his two expeditions: Discovery Hut on Hut Point was used for the Discovery Expedition, while Scott's Hut on Cape Evans was used for his doomed Terra Nova Expedition. Shackleton also constructed a hut that was used as a base for his party's almost-successful Nimrod Expedition; Shackleton's Hut remains on Cape Royds. These sites are all protected under the Antarctic Treaty System, and represent a golden age of discovery as mankind endeavored to reach the South Pole.

Criteria: Cultural
Outstanding universal value / comparative analysis: Struve Geodetic Arc, Maritime Greenwich

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#64 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:20 
winterkjm:
I might support any one of these parks individually (natural criteria), but there is no way all 3 should be inscribed. I think nfmungard and others here (if inclined) should pick what would be the representative site for this region and support that. While there are some minor Native American sites spread out amongst these parks, it would not be enough to argue for a mixed criteria, nor is there any particularly strong connotation to the Navajo. Various tribes have inhabited these regions, but none of these sites match the cultural value of (Mesa Verde, Chaco Canyon, Canyon de Chelly, Taos Pueblo).

I would simply group it into one. Wikipedia even groups Zion and Bryce closely. From my recollection Bryce felt way different than Grand Canyon and was way more accessible. Pretty sure this is one of the best NPs I visited.

winterkjm:
This is an incredible place, but some of its universal value may have been diminished by the trend over the last three decades to include more and more war memorials. This has been exacerbated even more with proposals being pushed or green-lighted under the current president.

I think the axis Capitol <> Lincoln Memorial with the White House and Jefferson Memorial Tangent is what I would inscribe. But no Republican would ever accept Unesco having a say in Washington DC.

To me, Top Missing should cover sites that do not progress on their own. E.g. Oxbridge, Panmunjon. Or this.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#65 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:23 
Jurre:
Full name of site: Dreams in Stone – the palaces of King Ludwig II of Bavaria: Neuschwanstein, Linderhof and Herrenchiemsee

Doesnt get my vote. But if, it should only be Neuschwanenstein.

winterkjm:
Full Name of Site: Lake Superior National Marine Conservation Area
Country: Canada, United States of America (transnational)

I will second this.

Colvin:
Full Name of Site: The Berlin Wall

Not sure how much original / tangible elements have remained. It's more like memorials nowadays.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#66 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:37 
nfmungard:
Not sure how much original / tangible elements have remained. It's more like memorials nowadays.

Each of the three sections of wall that I had linked to via wikipedia are original sections of the wall that have not been torn down; I'm including these sites again with links to their museum pages. The East Side Gallery is from the inner wall, the section by the Topography of Terror is from the outer wall, while the Berlin Wall Memorial includes a preserved section of the wall with a tower. I know a lot of the wall has been torn down, but there are sites that have been preserved.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#67 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:41 
Berlin - Unter den Linden (Germany)
Highlights: Gendarmenmarkt, Brandenburger Tor
OUV: It feels weird that Schinkel's best work is not on the list as it stands. Schinkel being the most prominent Prussian architect of the early 19th century. Downsides: Unter den Linden has changed a lot. The whole area around Brandenburger Tor was remodeled. But there is enough there that I think this should be listed.

Reichstag, Berlin
OUV: Probably, Norman Foster's best work (so could also be redone into a serial nomination). Interestingly, he was obliged to change his original design and incorporate another team's idea re the cupola. His original idea was to add a flat root. A blend between modernity and the Prussian past of the building (urban renewal). By opening up the building, he opened up the dark history of it and opened the parliament. To me, the epitome of what an architect can achieve: Making a statement with his design that goes beyond the aesthetics.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#68 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:41 
nfmungard:
Doesnt get my vote. But if, it should only be Neuschwanenstein.

Oh, I agree. I'd cut it down to Neuschwanstein only. But it is such an iconic castle that it should have a plce on the WHL.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#69 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:44 
nfmungard:
Whisky Distilleries of Scotland, UK

nfmungard:
Historic Football Fields and Stadiums of the UK

nfmungard:
Pubs of the UK and Ireland

None of these have any link to a clear and specific site. Which properties would best represent these and why? I cannot see them on the WHL.

To me, they should be more apt for the Intangible Heritage, but not the WHL.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#70 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:45 
Colvin:
Each of the three sections of wall that I had linked to via wikipedia are original sections of the wall that have not been torn down; I'm including these sites again with links to their museum pages. The East Side Gallery is from the inner wall, the section by the Topography of Terror is from the outer wall, while the Berlin Wall Memorial includes a preserved section of the wall with a tower. I know a lot of the wall has been torn down, but there are sites that have been preserved.

I am in Berlin regularly and have seen what remains. I have also passed the real border when I was little. And we were at the wall when it came down. To me, what remains is not the same thing. The whole size of it is hard to fathom if you see stretches of a few hundred meters.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#71 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:49 | Edited by: Jurre 
winterkjm:
"So, is a site of War Memorials and Cemeteries appropriate as a WHS? I personally felt that those described above were pretty non triumphant and even-handed in the treatment of different races and creeds. They also largely avoided nationalistic statements and posturing." . . . "perhaps I am biased in finding them "tasteful" and acceptable in these respects. If I look at other T List memorial sites I personally begin to find what I instinctively regard as less "acceptable" aspects – which turn (or at least begin to do so) the sites from a universal human statement of horror and grief into something more overtly nationalistic. From significant "Flag flying" - Gallipoli is dominated by what might be the World's largest Turkish flag - through to Stalingrad's Soviet style "Motherland Calls" statue. I don't dispute the right of those countries to commemorate their dead in those more overtly patriotic ways but do suggest that, in so doing, they could thereby exclude themselves from consideration as WHS. But, if the Belgian and French nominations are accepted, can Gallipoli really be excluded – and then, what about Stalingrad? Can it really be held that the Western Font memorials have achieved "universality" as anti-war statements without also being statements of victory and nationalism and, as a result, are more worthy of inscription than the potentially long list of other, rather more divisive, war memorial sites which could be brought forward?"

I think the universality that is achieved by this proposition is that it encompasses sites belonging to many different nations and nationalities. These are not only Belgian of French cemeteries, but also Canadian, American, British, Chinese, Czech AND also German ones. There are sites from both sides of the conflict which put the emphasis on the tragic loss of life and the futility of war, more so than nationalism and pattriotism. When standing in the cemeteries, one is overwhelmed with the enormous number of young lives lost and buried there. The sites make the horrors of war tangible and comprehensible.

This is also why the D-Day Beaches and memorials are different. I expected a similar feeling, but the D-Day sites focus much more on victory. The First World War sites do not.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#72 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:50 
Jurre:
None of these have any link to a clear and specific site. Which properties would best represent these and why? I cannot see them on the WHL.

See my comment in the general thread. We previously also included brainstorming and that's what those were.

For Whisky, I have been to Talisker, Tomatin, Highland Park and Dalwhinnie. Marina and Ivan spoke highly of the distilleries on Islay. For me, Dalwhinnie is the most scenic.

For Football, not sure if any historic pitch/stadium remains. Banking on Ian for this one.

The pubs I feel really strongly about as so many pubs I have been in the UK would warrant inscription by my count. Again, hoping Ian can propose a few. Otherwise, it would be simplest those that I linked to: the oldest.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#73 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:53 
winterkjm:
Castles are well-represented, though a serial nomination of the best in Scotland may be worthy of inscription. Though I daresay not "Top Missing".

To me, the castles of Scotland are a quintessential part of the highlander myth. So I don't think they are just another set of medieval castles. To me, seeing Eilean Donan Castle again, scenically located in the fjord was just amazing.

Assif:
A very influential architect. Yes.

To me, he was an influential designer. I don't think his architecture warrants inscription. His cups meanwhile are stored in my cupboard.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#74 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:56 
nfmungard:
I would simply group it into one. Wikipedia even groups Zion and Bryce closely. From my recollection Bryce felt way different than Grand Canyon and was way more accessible. Pretty sure this is one of the best NPs I visited.

How about Zion and Bryce Canyon (and perhaps Cedar Breaks NM) all together as they are all (more or less) adjacent to each other? Arches NP is far to the Northeast, about 5 hours drive from Zion.

Perhaps a name like Colorado Plateau National Parks: Zion & Bryce Canyon? Here is the NPS website for Utah National Parks, which shows the exact locations.

"The Colorado Plateau has the greatest concentration of U.S. National Park Service (NPS) units in the country outside the Washington, DC metropolitan area. Among its nine national parks are Grand Canyon, Zion, Bryce Canyon, Capitol Reef, Canyonlands, Arches, Mesa Verde, and Petrified Forest. Among its 18 national monuments are Bears Ears, Cesar Breaks, Rainbow Bridge, Dinosaur, Hovenweep, Wupatki, Sunset Crater Volcano, Grand Staircase-Escalante, Natural Bridges, Canyons of the Ancients, Chaco Culture National Historical Park and the Colorado National Monument." - Wikipedia

Author Jurre
Partaker
#75 | Posted: 2 May 2020 14:59 | Edited by: Jurre 
nfmungard:
For Whisky, I have been to Talisker, Tomatin, Highland Park and Dalwhinnie. Marina and Ivan spoke highly of the distilleries on Islay. For me, Dalwhinnie is the most scenic.

For Football, not sure if any historic pitch/stadium remains. Banking on Ian for this one.

The pubs I feel really strongly about as so many pubs I have been in the UK would warrant inscription by my count. Again, hoping Ian can propose a few. Otherwise, it would be simplest those that I linked to: the oldest.

I still think the Intangible Heritage is better suited for these. Other countries have also gone that route:
- Belgium and the beer culture
- Turkey and the Turkish coffee culture and tradition
- Italy and the art of Neapolitan 'Pizzaiuolo'

This is the same discussion as with the Japanese bath houses or onsens, of which was also questioned if they merit a place on the WHL. I doubt they will make it on the final list as well.

If English pubs are accepted, what stops Italy from proposing its pizzerias, Turkey and Austria its coffee houses, Spain its tapas bars?

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 Top 50 - Europe and North America [2020]
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