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Top 50 Missing - 2020 version

 
 
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Author Colvin
Partaker
#76 | Posted: 25 Mar 2020 07:56 
In that case, would it make sense to also consider a Top 50 - Transnational (2020) topic?

Author Assif
Partaker
#77 | Posted: 25 Mar 2020 09:28 
Didn't we decide to adopt Fifa's regions instead of the ones used be Unesco?
I thought we have agreed Oceania and Asia should be separated as well as North and Central America (including Caribbean) from South America.
What do you think?

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#78 | Posted: 25 Mar 2020 12:40 
@Assif: It was a proposal. But it seems we keep the Unesco ones. In the end, right now doesn't matter, apart from keeping in mind that Algeria and Egypt are not Africa. Interestingly, Africa has zero Top 50 from previous round remaining.

Author paul
Partaker
#79 | Posted: 25 Mar 2020 14:47 
I don't really understand the motivation to impose a uniform distribution of sites based on some definition of representation. I would prefer a honest list, based purely on merit. History, geology, size, politics and arbitrary and transient national or geographical borders mean we cannot expect sites to be evenly distributed. One might feel that Italy, Spain or China are over represented but these countries just have a lot of amazing places!

What is interesting is looking at and discussing the distribution of a merit based list. Such a discussion may reveal much about the community and how the community thinks about heritage and OUV.

There are many organisations that have invested a lot in the mechanics of creating such a merit based list in a statistically robust manner!

A possible process could be to simply allow anyone to nominate any site using a detailed and uniformly formatted motivation. The motivation can include any concerns about under representation The community can then discus and improve the nomination and/or the motivation. The community can then vote using a 5 star rating. We can then use a weighted Baysian estimate, or the less robust Wilson score, to order the list. The Baysian estimate would ensure that high votes from small numbers of voters would be still be listed low in the list.

I think creating and discussing detailed motivations for nominations is the value of the whole exercise.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#80 | Posted: 25 Mar 2020 15:08 | Edited by: winterkjm 
paul:
I don't really understand the motivation to impose a uniform distribution of sites based on some definition of representation. I would prefer a honest list, based purely on merit.

We know where this leads. A community that primarily resides in Europe will inevitably be Eurocentric (not placing blame here), therefore by definition NOT being a list based on merit.

The fact that our remaining Top 50 Missing list includes ZERO sites from Africa, is that based on merit? No, its based on the flaws in our Top Missing 2014 process that I hope we can improve on. The default for most of us is we vote toward familiarity and places we experienced that feel exceptional to us. There is nothing wrong with this, but if we want to create a Top Missing List that is actually indicative of the most outstanding sites that remain un-listed then some structures should be in place to ensure a more balance approach.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#81 | Posted: 25 Mar 2020 15:50 
In addition, when we actually vote, while there will be restrictions by region, most votes win (ranked higher).

For examples, here is Els previous list and let's pretend that voting is already tallied. (Disregard that some sites are from the Top Missing 2014 List)

Africa
- Benguela Current (5 votes)
- South Luangwa NP (7 votes)
- Sierra Leone's Gola National Parks (10 votes)
- Zakouma NP (27 votes)
- Laas Geel (25 votes)

Arab States
- Pharaonic Temples of Kom Ombo and Edfu (31 votes)
- Sheikh Zayed Mosque, Abu Dhabi (16 votes)
- Lalish (holiest site of the Yazidis) (8 votes)
- Empty Quarter (transboundary) (3 votes)
- Dead Sea (12 votes)

Asia and the Pacific
- Dzongs of Bhutan (40 votes)
- Mount Kailash (20 votes)
- Band e Amir (10 votes)
- City of Herat (11 votes)
- Meenakshi Temple in Madurai (7 votes)

Europe and North America
- Transsiberian Railway (19 votes)
- Svalbard (35 votes)
- Chicago School of Architecture (37 votes)
- Baffin Island (15 votes)
- Minoan palaces of Crete (22 votes)

Latin America and the Caribbean
- Huaca de la Luna en Huaca del Sol (32 votes)
- Chankillo Astronomical Complex (24 votes)
- Torres del Paine (18 votes)
- Rupununi Savannah (13 votes)
- Panama Canal (27 votes)

Ranking
1 Dzongs of Bhutan
2 Chicago School of Architecture
3 Svalbard
4 Huaca de la Luna en Huaca del Sol
5 Pharaonic Temples of Kom Ombo and Edfu
6 Zakouma NP
7 Panama Canal
8 Laas Geel
9 Chankillo Astronomical Complex
10 Minoan palaces of Crete


This is just a simulation, but I hope it shows how the structure would balance merit and representation.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#82 | Posted: 25 Mar 2020 17:09 | Edited by: nfmungard 
paul:
The community can then vote using a 5 star rating. We can then use a weighted Baysian estimate, or the less robust Wilson score, to order the list. The Baysian estimate would ensure that high votes from small numbers of voters would be still be listed low in the list.

Paul, feel free to weigh in on the method in the site rating thread. I implemented (weighted) Wilson score as we have too few votes and imho that works. An unweighted score would yield plenty of zero ratings due to low numbers. I am happy to look into other statistical methods, but ... you can dress up a pig, it's still a pig (low votes for some sites).

paul:
I don't really understand the motivation to impose a uniform distribution of sites based on some definition of representation.

Researching African places and seeing how few sites we actually listed as Top Missing in the previous iteration, I don't think representation works. Plenty of sites found by simply googling that seem stunning (albeit badly preserved). I think well known sites (and Europe) were over represented in the last effort and we should steer somewhat to get a balanced proposal. So, it's actually good to actually look at gaps and make a dedicated effort to think how to fill it. And you have traveled probably more than most here in Africa, would love your suggestions.

paul:
I think creating and discussing detailed motivations for nominations is the value of the whole exercise.

I think we are in the brainstorming phase. We should list plenty of sites and see what sticks. For me, writing a rationale/motivation would come as a second step.

winterkjm:
The fact that our remaining Top 50 Missing list includes ZERO sites from Africa, is that based on merit?

Technically, not true. It's based on the fact that Egypt counts as Arab state ;)

winterkjm:
A community that primarily resides in Europe will inevitably be Eurocentric (not placing blame here), therefore by definition NOT being a list based on merit.

Don't agree on the Europe centric being a result of Europe residents. But name recognition plays a key role and name recognition is heavily influenced by media etc

winterkjm:
- Pharaonic Temples of Kom Ombo and Edfu (31 votes)

Case in point re Africa.

Author elsslots
Admin
#83 | Posted: 1 Apr 2020 01:30 | Edited by: elsslots 
Brought over from the Africa Missing 2020 topic:

What will be the next step after compiling a long list per continent, narrowed done to sites that have at least 2 promoters (for Africa at the moment there are 60 of those)?

Proposed has been:
Assif:
nfmungard:
I think it would be nice to produce sth like a review with photos for all the candidates with links etc.

We already have links, but I agree it would be nice to have a paragraph for each proposed candidate, but writing such paragraphs is certainly feasible for 58 sites. I would be happy to do it for the ones I proposed and for some of them we already have such paragraphs. I would also need a short comparison with similar sites.

So I agree it would be worthwhile having something lasting, that we could also use to show permanently on the website.
Are we then looking for a kind of introduction text, like the WHS currently have? (3-5 sentences, including why it has been made a WHS)?
And if the answer is Yes - is having 60 sites (already for Africa alone) too many? -> I don't think the work to be done should be a criterion for that, better think about whether we want to have those 60 running for the worldwide Top Missing ranking? For me that would be OK, why have less?

Author Colvin
Partaker
#84 | Posted: 1 Apr 2020 09:12 
So are you asking about whether we are in favor creating pages for the proposals like the Tentative sites, such as the Benguela Current Marine Ecosystem Sites, already have or whether we should write entries like ones that winterkjm has written?

winterkjm:
Full name of site: Benguela Current Marine Ecosystem Sites
Country: Namibia
Short description of site: The Benguela Marine ecosystem is one of the most productive coastal upwelling zones in the global oceans, of which an area offshore southern Namibia is known as the most concentrated and intense upwelling regime in the world. The high levels of primary productivity of this ecosystem support an important global reservoir of biodiversity and biomass of zooplankton, fish, sea birds and marine mammals.
Criteria: Mixed
Outstanding universal value / comparative analysis: Canary Current (offshore Northwest Africa), the California Current (offshore California and Oregon) and the Humboldt Current (offshore Peru and Chile).

I'd be more inclined to the latter because I'd be concerned that entries we champion that aren't Tentative sites might be confused for existing Tentative sites.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#85 | Posted: 4 Apr 2020 23:28 
Have we come to a concensus on what the next steps should be for the Top 50 Missing - 2020? Do we need to wrap up Africa now that is has been two weeks before moving on to the next region?

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#86 | Posted: Yesterday 17:28 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Assif:
Mecca (Saudi Arabia) - For its significance in Muslim worship and it continuous use. Certainly not for the surrounding historical remnants.
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=6&topic=29

Pharaonic Temples of Kom Ombo and Edfu (Egypt) - Outstanding masterpieces of the latest period of ancient Egyptian history (Ptolomaic). They are representative of an influential culture that is underrepresented on the list and are well preserved. It is a TWHS.
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/tentative/id/1824

Assif:
Jericho (Palestine) - Perhaps the oldest example of a neolithic settlement and a type site.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_es-Sultan

Are we re-nominating previous Top Missing sites? Undeniably, these are outstanding sites that we initiatively identified in 2014/2015. Not sure what the consensus was. All three of these proposals were in the top 50 remaining sites from our previous list.

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