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Author Solivagant
Partaker
#16 | Posted: 23 Feb 2009 03:14 | Edited by: Solivagant 
If it means "lost" or "secret" as far as Westerners were concerned have we not already covered this under "Recorded discoveries" (Which already has both Petra and Machu Picchu et al)? We added the epithet "Recorded" to take account of the fact that such places were of course known to locals and were only in a rather specific sense "discovered" by Western experts/travellers etc

Author Assif
Partaker
#17 | Posted: 23 Feb 2009 04:24 
Both were considered secret by their own inhabitants. Their very location was considered secret. Something like the Russian ZATO.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#18 | Posted: 23 Feb 2009 05:45 | Edited by: Solivagant 
OK - so there is "secret" in the sense of "not known about" by non-nationals or some "inner sanctum" group of people and in the sense of "limited entry" to some subset of people based on nationality, culture, belief or role - this latter being most equivalent to the Soviet "closed city"?

In this latter sense I guess that Lhasa and the Forbidden City Beijing could count -and even Soviet Kazan as far as foreigners were concerned!

As regards Petra and Machu Picchu do we know enough about the circumstances of access to them to be able to say if they were "secret" in either of the above senses? Even the concept (and not yet the "reality") of "open travel" to places outside the control of ones own empire/country/allies/religion is relatively modern so historically many places were in effect "closed" to outsiders at least for long periods - I think quickly of Harer which was eventually "forced" by Burton. Even Bukhara was in effect closed for long periods to westerners.

Petra
In what sense was Petra "secret"? I assume we are referring primarily to the early, particularly pre-Roman, days. Clearly it is very well fortified and defensible (so could be "locked down" when required) but is that the same as "secret"? Surely its existence and location were well known to those of the region? It was a major trading city - and was attacked by the Seleucids in 312BC. In the other sense of being a "closed city" - do we know if only "caravans" made up of Nabateans were allowed in? There would appear to be quite a lot of evidence of Hellenic influences in the buildings -and of course we have the "bilingual inscriptions"!

Machu Picchu.
It was built before the Spanish invasion (so wasn't originally intended to be "kept secret" from them) and, like Petra, is very well fortified and defensible (The "Incas" had pre-Hispanic enemies such as the Chankas). But it had "Inca Roads" going to it which implies movement of peoples insofar as that happened in any meaningful sense in the "Inca world" where there was no freedom for people to come and go. Presumably there were armies and movement of goods and information - the famous transfer of quipus and "fresh" fish from the Pacific Ocean up to the Altiplano. The reasons the Spaniards never knew about it are not really clear - it could even have been abandoned by the time they were in the area given the dynastic problems faced by the Incas in the years immediately before the Spanish arrival. Certainly there is no real eveidence of its continued occupation in any meaningful sense after the sacking of Cusco and destruction of "Inca" society

Author Assif
Partaker
#19 | Posted: 23 Feb 2009 11:14 
Interesting remarks. I agree my suggestion isn't waterproof but I didn't intend it as a closed area in the sense of free movement but rather as having a secret location.
Wiki says Macchu Pichu location was a military secret. I don't know the exact sense with which they mean it. I learnt Petra's location was kept secret from the Romans.

Author Assif
Partaker
#20 | Posted: 28 Feb 2009 20:06 
Another suggestion:

House of Liechtenstein - Vienna (Palais Liechtenstein), Lednice-Valtice (Valtice was their main residence till WWII), ?

I would still be happy for another secret city (see above) if you have one.

Author Assif
Partaker
#21 | Posted: 2 Mar 2009 06:00 
And yet some others:

Thomas Mann - Luebeck (born there), Curonian Spit (had a cottage at the German Artists Colony in Nidden), ?

Labour/Extermination Camps - Auschwitz, Curonian Spit (French prisoners parished due to forced labour at a camp in the Death Valley in 1870-1872), ?

Author Assif
Partaker
#22 | Posted: 2 Mar 2009 06:11 
Artists Colonies:

Curonian Spit - Nidda, Salzkammergut - Zinkenbach, ?

Author Assif
Partaker
#23 | Posted: 2 Mar 2009 18:53 
Stone Architecture with no Mortar - Macchu-Pichu, Alberobello, ?

Author elsslots
Admin
#24 | Posted: 3 Mar 2009 00:29 
Assif:
Stone Architecture with no Mortar


This is already a connection: http://www.worldheritagesite.org/tags/tag347.html

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#25 | Posted: 3 Mar 2009 08:22 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Re "Thomas Mann" -
A possible third would be Venice ("Death in Venice"). But
a. Is the "connection" to Venice close enough (I don't know enough about Mann's "real" as opposed to fictional connections to the place)?
b. We already have Lubeck/Mann under books by Nobel Prize winning authors

Re "Labour Camp"
Robben Island had its quarry - does that make it a Labour camp as well as a prison? But wouldn't it be better just to add the Curonian Spit to Prisons because of the historic event cited? Most prisons involve some "labour" - indeed the connection between prison and labour camp is somewhat closer, I would have thought, than between labour and extermination camps?


Re Artist Colonies
Taos certainly was a very significant "artist colony" and attracted notable "names" in the first half of 20C. I believe it still is - but perhaps less significant.
I fear that "arty" San Miguel Allende would also count - but possbily more for its Siqueiros etc roots than the hordes of "art course" tourists getting their Bachelors of Visual Arts and Masters of Fine Arts degrees!

There is a "definitional issue" also - what constitutes ans "artist colony". To me it means that a reaosnable number live there all year round. However it also seems to be used where there are annual "get togethers" perhaps based on the fact that 1 or 2 artists live there year round e.g.
Ohrid - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_Ramazzoti
Portobelo Panama - http://www.spelman.edu/artcolony/portobelo.html

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#26 | Posted: 14 Mar 2009 04:23 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Further to the above.
Art Colonies
Of course "Taos" is different and separate from the Inscribed "Taos Pueblo" - and it is Taos itself rather than the Pueblo where the "Artists Colony" resides (I think that, in English, the term "Art colony" is more normal/"correct" than "Artists Colony" though I am not quite sure why and whether it could be defended. Can you have a colony of "art"? Well not really, but that is English for you!)
However - there are still close connections with Taos Pueblo as per this quote from Wiki
"Beginning in 1899, artists began to settle in Taos and created the "Taos Society of Artists". In time the Taos art colony developed. Many paintings were made of local scenes, especially of Taos Pueblo and activities there. Many of the artists used Native Americans from the pueblo as models in often fanciful paintings. Some of the artists' studios have been preserved and may be viewed by visitors to Taos. These include the Blumenschein House. Influential Taos artists include Nicolai Fechin, R. C. Gorman, Agnes Martin and Bill Rane."

Should the "Connection" simply be with the place where the artists live, sleep and "pay their taxes" or should where they go to paint, get their inspiration etc also be taken into account? I will leave it to Els (and Assif??) but would suggest that the inscribed "Pueblo" is intimately and essentially "connected" to/with the "Taos Art Colony" -even if the artists live and go to the cafes/bars and restaurants "down the road" (5.9 miles according to Google maps) in Taos!!
If this isn't a close enough "connection" then there is still San Miguel Allende for the required 3rd -and then a "ruling" is required on Ohrid and Portobelo

Thomas Mann
Regarding any "real connections" between Thomas Mann and Venice - it appears he only went there on holiday (his only period of living in Italy was for 1 year in Palestrina near Rome). But I found this in Wiki
"Thomas Mann's wife Katia recalls that the idea for the story came during an actual holiday in Venice, which she and Thomas took in the spring of 1911:
All the details of the story, beginning with the man at the cemetery, are taken from experience ... In the dining-room, on the very first day, we saw the Polish family, which looked exactly the way my husband described them:..."
Normally just taking a holiday in a place would not justify a Connection - but, given what it led to in terms of the novella, it perhaps doesn't seem unreasonable to connect it to "Thomas Mann"?
Again what do Els/Assif think?

Author elsslots
Admin
#27 | Posted: 21 Mar 2009 10:17 
Solivagant:
Re "Thomas Mann"

I've added Venice to the Nobel Prize winning authors-connection, will not make a separate connection for Thomas Mann as the links to his personal life are so thin

Author elsslots
Admin
#28 | Posted: 21 Mar 2009 10:18 
Solivagant:
Re "Labour Camp"

Have added it to prisons

Author Assif
Partaker
#29 | Posted: 21 Mar 2009 15:38 
Built or Owned by Hungarians:

Zipser Burg, Transylvanian Villages - Darjiu Unitarian church, ?

Oskar Schindler:

Cracow - factory, Regensburg - lived there, ? (his grave in Jerusalem is outside the designated area)

Author Assif
Partaker
#30 | Posted: 1 Apr 2009 01:56 
Destroyed by Hurricanes:

Camaguey - Hurricane Ike 2008 - I'm sure there quite a few in the Americas

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