Els, do you think it might be possible to have a map of the different hotspots? This would surely be of great help when planning WHS trips.

nfmungard is already working on it!

elsslots

See my mails. Problem is really about mapping locations to connections as the Amsterdam connection will run all the way up to Denmark otherwise. Not sure if you want to go there.

Yes I saw them, but I did not have the time to look into it yet.

Waiting for the plane to Palau now!

I think the Ho Citadel may be a stretch to do from Hanoi in a day (and back)?

Sorry, didn't intend to put you in a hurry. Just meant to say there is a hold up that needs to be resolved before this can be implemented.

Good flight and enjoy Palau.

elsslots

Actually Trang An and Ho Citadel are in the same area. I did these two sites as one day trip from Hanoi by private tour. With new highway Morning at Trang An, and afternoon quick stop at Ho Citadel (because nothing much to see). It will not be possible for normal hotel tour because as of 2016 no such tour that combine these two sites, they normally arrange Trang an with the biggest temple of Vietnam.

I'd like to get a bit strict with current and proposed Hotspots, both proposed here and by e-mail.

Let's revisit the idea, as clarified in the beginning of this forum topic:
- links 4 separate WHS
- reachable on separate day trips from 1 center (center must be named)
- "primarily about sites grouped relatively closely together rather than about the limits of the ingenuity and endurance of WHS enthusiasts in getting to ever further away sites from a central point and back in a day"
- WHS lies at most 200km from center
- practical considerations may lead to allow even less than 200km, it should be realistically practical to go back and forth within a day (given circumstances such as road conditions, border crossings, opening hours of the WHS, availability of transport at all etc)
- mode of transport is unspecified, but I prefer to see public transport links (no flights, and also hiring a private driver to do the 'dirty work' (i.e. long hours behind the wheel) for you - mwah)

I have doubts about recent suggestions for the Helsinki Hotspot:
- Rauma and Sammalahdenmaki: both over 200km away from Helsinki (230-250km)
- Petajavesi: even further (though possible on public transport on a long day)
- St. Petersburg: 3.5 hour by train, though not really practical because of need for visa (and far beyond 200km)

I am also still not convinced about the Hanoi hotspot, although Durian has provided good supporting info. At least Trang An and the Ho citadel are within the 200km limit. How much time would it take by public transport?

I also note that our standards for what we can do in a day trip have stretched over the years (I have personally undertaken day trips to London, Liverpool and Paris from my home in NL over the past years, as well as taken 3.5 or 4 hour one way trips, and then back again the same day). But I think we should stick to the original idea: imagine that you find yourself in a hotel in Helsinki or Hanoi (or whatever center) for 4 days, which day trips are viable?

Maybe I should clarify the Helsinki Hotspot case because I had suggested it (as I live in Helsinki myself).

First of all I must admit that in many points I agree with Els. There are two ways of understanding the concept of 'hotspot': 1) a WHS that is possible to reach (by public transport) and experience on a return day trip within one day, and 2) a group of WHS that are bundled together within a short distance with a possibility to visit them conveniently on a relatively short return day trip from one center. What I meant with my Helsinki suggestions was the first one but I think that the second one is closer to the idea of hotspot.

In absolute terms, all of them (Rauma/Sammallahdenmäki, Petäjävesi and Saint Petersburg) are totally doable but they won't be very short day trips:
- Rauma / Sammallahdenmäki: 3,5 hours hours by direct bus. 4-6 hours to spend at Rauma. I think that at least these sites should be on the Helsinki Hotspot.
- Petäjävesi: 4,5 hours by train (2 changes), 3 hours to spend at the site and train back 5 hours (2 changes). This would be a bit tough day trip, I must admit:)
- Saint Petersburg: The fast and comfortable 'Allegro' train takes less than 3,5 hours. The first train starts from Helsinki at 6.20 AM and the last train leaves Saint Petersburg at 8.30 PM. So there is 9,5 hours to spend in Saint Petersburg if you want to use an expensive Russian visa just for a day trip. But in practice it is totally viable.

If we apply the strict rules, the Struve and Verla sites on a current Helsinki Hotspot are a bit questionable although they are geographically quite near Helsinki. The nearest possible Struve location 'Porlom II' is not doable by public transport on a same day. There is one bus per day that goes near the site but there is not a way to go back on a same day. 'Puolakka' site could be on some way doable but it takes 4 hours by bus to the nearest village and then either a very long walk (2-3 hours) or a taxi to the site. So it would be far from a convenient day trip.

Verla is quite near Helsinki but it is not very straightforward place to visit by public transport. First train (1,5 hours) and then there is a seasonal (only during summertime) bus connection to the site. The trip takes 3 hours and there is only one possible train/bus alternative per day.

What I mean is that from my perspective (as a Finnish person) it is easier and more convenient to do a day trip to Rauma or even to Saint Petersburg than Struve sites or Verla. But I totally understand Els's point of view and naturally it is up to her to decide about the concept of hotspot on this website.

Some remarks:
* As soon as you get a fast rail connection, the hotspot concept reaches its limit. Berlin is 2h from Hamburg. You get there a lot faster than to Fagus Factory or Wismar. Even by direct bus a day trip would be possible and affordable.
* We have several overlapping hotspots: Hamburg, Berlin..

In the end the question is what is a hotspot supposed to signify:

1) Logistical feasibility for WHS travelers.
2) Coherent sites belonging to one area.

Personally, I would go with the latter. By that definition, the Hamburg hotspot doesn't make sense, but a Harz hotspot would (Fagus, Corvey, Hildesheim, Goslar).

For 1) I would rather create a new relation "Nearby" for sites and show this per site. Also, the map features (global, country) make analysis a lot easier anyhow.

Hotspots to remove if 4 threshold applies:
* Aegean: Rhodes is not a day trip from anything else.
* Belo Horizonte: Diamantina is a 5h drive.

Rhodes is definitively not but maybe Ephesus is, if the center is Samos. There are ferry connections from Samos to Patmos and Chios but I doubt that those could be made as a return day trip. I also think that this hotspot might be useless.

As an airliner I'd like to throw in my definition for hotspots. I use airports as hotspots. And the definition is quite simple: A hotspot is an airport from whom at least 3 WHS can be reached within 2 hours or less by car. I add every visited site to only one (or none) hotspot. It's the airport most convenient for me to fly in and visit those sites. If you work with radiuses or a certain amount of km you get too many overlaps. Also, sometimes, because if geographical or political influence, a site that would be within the km radius can't be reached that easy.

We don't have a Copenhagen hotspot and simply by the four sites around Kopenhagen that should count.

In addition:
* Jelling in 2:30h.
* Christianfeld in 2:45h
* Karlskrona is feasible in 3h
* Lübeck and Grimeton in 4h,

I took a look at all sites without a hotspot assignment. Below a few recommended changes.

The Rome hotspot should include:
* Assisi (2.5h-3h train) and Langobard (Spoleto, 2h train).

The Paris hotspot should include:
* Bourges (2.5h)
* Fontenay (1h Montbard + 5km walk) http://www.abbayedefontenay.com/en/how-to-get-there

The Brno hotspot should include:
* Litomysl

The Bavaria hotspot should include:
* Margravial Opera House

The Valencia hotspot should include:
* Teruel (Mudejar)

The Milan hotspot should include:
* Genova (Cinque Terre is included)

The Frankfurt hotspot could include:
* Ice Age Caves (2:40h Blaubeuren by train)

The Hamburg hotspot could include:
* Christiansfeld (4h)
* Corvey (3:30h)

The Toyko hotspot could include:
* Hiraizumi

The Mexico City Hotspot could include:
* Monarch Butterflies



New hotspot: Western Bulgaria (Sofia)
* Pirin is 3h from Sofia. Rila, Boyana and Beech Forest should do the trick.

New hotspot: Stuttgart (overlaps with Frankfurt, but Frankfurt is primarily hotspot due to all the fast trains running).
* Ice Age Caves, Reichenau, Pile Dwellings, Limes, Le Corbusier, potentially Augsburg, Maulbronn, Speyer, Strassburg.

New hotspot: Dijon / Burgendy.
* Dijon, Besancon, Arc-et-Senans, Fontenay

New hotspot: Harz
* Goslar, Hildesheim, Fagus, Corvey.

New hotspot: Missiones (with some good will)
* Paraguay Missions, Argentina Missions, Iguazu 1&2.

New hotspot: Meknes. Fast trains running from Rabat to Fez via Meknes.
* Fez, Volubilis, Rabat, Meknes.


Note: Several sites have 3 components and I think we should maybe more lenient here. Kazan, Istanbul, Vilnius, Kotor/Dubrovnik,