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Out or In Doubt #12

Author elsslots
#1 | Posted: 24 Oct 2009 22:58 | Edited by: elsslots 
Here we go again. The following connections are OUT. If you do not agree with my conclusions, please state in a reply on this thread.

Vikings: Anse au Meadows, Birka, Curonian Spit - Kaup, Jelling
>> Vikings are already a category

On National Border: Sukur
>> is few kms away from the border with Cameroon

(2140) Tombs
Royal Tombs of the Joseon Dynasty
>> (it is a dynastic burial place)

(2133) Masterpieces of Oral and Intangible heritage
Mijikenda Kaya Forests
>> (sure? Can't find it. Please send link with proof)

(2124) Sites of Parliament
Acropolis - Pnyx (Buffer Zone)
>> we generally do not include buffer zones, except for trivial connections

(2117) On National Border
Völklingen Ironworks - On French border
>> not right on the border

(2109) Christian Churches in non Christian countries
St. Catherine
>> Egypt has around 10 percent Christians, and thus doesn't count as non Christian

(2095) Rhine
Cologne Cathedrale - the site itself does not touches the Rhine but the buffer zone includes both sides of the Rhine.
>> we generally do not include buffer zones, except for trivial connections

(2083) Fatal Accidents or "disasters"
Bam in Iran - terrible earthquake in 2003 Pompei and Herculanum Old town of Galle in Sri Lanka affected by the tsunami of 2004
>> (they're already registered under Earthquakes and Hit by Tsunami)

(2005) Historical Organs
Aquincum is outside the WHS
>> it is named quite prominently in the AB-evaluation, so I guess it's included

1996) Lighthouses
Qal'at al Bahrain
>> is it still there? Proof?

(1984) Protection of a single named species
Komodo National Park
>> site is not named after the species

Frederick II - Modena, Ravenna, Ferrara
>> please link a specific site / monument to Frederick II

(1992) Animal Migrations
Ferrara - Po Delta
(1991) Irrigation and drainage
Ferrara - Valli di Comacchio
(1990) Salt
Ferrara - Valli di Comacchio
(1989) Ramsar Wetlands
Ferrara - Valli di Comacchio
>> I cannot find any proof that these sites are included in Ferrara's Po Delta

Author Assif
#2 | Posted: 25 Oct 2009 07:01 | Edited by: Assif 
According to the Unesco map Valli di Comacchio are indeed only in the buffer zone as well as Lagosanto where the hydraulic machinery is found. Therefore the four additions should indeed be out.

Author Assif
#3 | Posted: 25 Oct 2009 07:21 
Frederick II captured Ravenna in 1240.

Author Solivagant
#4 | Posted: 25 Oct 2009 09:44 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Re Mijikendra Forests and Mastepieces of Oral and Intangible Heritage - this link seems pretty clear that they gained inscription in 2009

Re Qal'at al Bahrain. The nomination file for this site has, on page 51 a photograph titled "Figure 32 — Base of the tower (ancient lighthouse ?) at the entrance of the access channel to the site" The text states "Such a construction is interpreted as the base of a tower, possibly used in the past as a lighthouse (or even a simpler landmark) for indicating the entrance of the access channel. It could have also used as a guard tower, aiming at the surveillance of immediate maritime traffic and control of the access to the channel."
It would seem that the most which could be said is "Base of Ruined tower which was possibly a lighthouse"!

re Connections in Buffer Zones - I wasn't aware we had any - even in "Trivial" connections!! Any examples? If so I feel they should be removed!

Author elsslots
#5 | Posted: 25 Oct 2009 10:01 
re Connections in Buffer Zones .. Any examples?

We've got the Antipodes points for example.
But I wouldn't add specific monuments in buffer zones.

Author Solivagant
#6 | Posted: 25 Oct 2009 11:26 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Thanks - in the case of the Antipodes Points it was still the Inscribed site rather than the buffer zone we were "connecting" - we were just allowing that, for a pair of sites to be situated at their respective "antipodes points", didn't require that the inscribed areas were EXACTLY to the minute/second on the opposite sides of the Earth

Author david
#7 | Posted: 25 Oct 2009 15:14 
Aquincum is outside the WHS: just see the official map here

Author Walter
#8 | Posted: 29 Oct 2009 12:28 
Concerning the Rhine connection.
Strassbourg - Grand Ile, like Cologne Cathedral should be disqualified.
The Stassbourg site does not touch the Rhine, only an affluent (the Ill) and the canal from the Rhone to the Rhine.
The buffer zone is still not properly determined, but projects seem not to get to the Rhine.

Author Solivagant
#9 | Posted: 29 Oct 2009 13:59 
Hi Walter,
Do you know if the Speyer Cathedral site "touches" the Rhine. I suspect it is like Cologne. It was a very early inscription and the documentation is lacking - there is no map and probably, as with Strasbourg, there is, as yet, no defined boundary or buffer zone.
The Cathedral is quite a way from the Rhine however and even if the whole of the Domgarten were included that also doesn't reach the Rhine - there is still a railway and road in between.

It depends what the "Connection" is "about" - is it a "pedantic" definition based on exact site boundaries or a "cultural" one based on the site being essentially a "Rhineland" one. If the latter it might be better to leave Strasbourg, Cologne and Speyer connected but clarify in the text that the inscribed sites don't actually "touch" the Rhine?

I notice that the Amazon connection is actually defined as "The Amazon Basin" but it would be a "big leap" to move to defining ALL river connections in terms of the entire river basin!

We do have some similar "logic" problems with other river connections e.g
a. The Vistula includes Auschwitz on the basis that it is "Located along the Sola River, a tributary of the Upper Vistula River" - are we are adopting a different convention for the Rhine towns?
b. None of the town of Orange is on the Rhone - and certainly not the even more limited inscribed area of the Roman Theatre and Arch.
c. Srebana is on an old Ox bow lake "adjacent" to the Danube rather than "on" it

Author Walter
#10 | Posted: 30 Oct 2009 11:48 
I've never found any map about Speyer.

There is a defined boundary for Strasbourg - Grand Ile, The the buffer zone however is not (or more precisely, it's definition sent back to the State Party in 2007). I can not find the map again, it had been published in 2007 on the WHS site back then.

On a personal level, I would favor "your" cultural definition. Speyer, Strasbourg, and also Cologne have been culturaly connected to the river since the Middle-Age.
Cologne was even put on the danger list, among other thing by sky-scrapers project on the other side of the Rhine, in areas outside both the boundary and the buffer zone.

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 Out or In Doubt #12

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