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Author Solivagant
Partaker
#46 | Posted: 2 Nov 2019 02:32 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
What do you think, Solivagant, as 'inventor' of this connection?

a. I think we should change the Title to "Glass floored Skywalks etc" and the Definition to "WHS containing Bridges, Platforms or Walkways with glass floors which provide vertical downward views". This then excludes walkways as at Iguazu or mere "Miradors" and such platforms which will be "10 a penny"
b. Colvin's suggestion at Wulong fits the bill very well! Checking against the (not wonderful) map provided by China to UNESCO for the Wulong element it does seem to be unarguably within its core zone.
c. I was a bit worried about the Hallsadtt-Dachstein "World Heritage View" as it wasn't absolutely clear whether it had a glass floor. Fast forwarding through this Chinese couple's elaborate and very slow/dreamy 10 minute video of their visit (complete with piano music, bird song and a run through of their breakfast!!! Actually I love it - they really enjoyed their holiday and it comes across!) shows that it does NOT! So we would have a problem if we put in the "glass floor" condition. Luckily there is another platform within the Hallstad WHS called the "5 fingers Skywalk" - 1 of its "fingers" has a glass floor ("One of the platforms is made entirely from glass and another enables visitors to gain their own personal view of the Hallstatt World Heritage site through a large Baroque picture frame"). Suggest we replace the Hallstadt example with this one.
d. Regarding man-made towers etc. With the emphasis of the Connection being pointed at the availability of a "vertical downward" view rather than just a "high view" I see no reason not to include them if they have a glass floor. The Eiffel Tower does but not, I think, the Mechelen one. As far as I can see from photos and descriptions it is just a walkway fixed to the top of the tower for viewing - it may have "glass walled sides" but that it not enough!

Author elsslots
Admin
#47 | Posted: 2 Nov 2019 03:58 
Solivagant:
but not, I think, the Mechelen one

I also don't think so, but it is quite a structure that has been built on top of a medieval tower! Remarkable that it was allowed.

Author elsslots
Admin
#48 | Posted: 2 Nov 2019 04:10 | Edited by: elsslots 
Solivagant:
very slow/dreamy 10 minute video

It is really soothing indeed, it's from a Belgian-Filipino/Indonesian couple I think

Author Colvin
Partaker
#49 | Posted: 2 Nov 2019 11:06 
elsslots:
it is quite a structure that has been built on top of a medieval tower!

I originally thought the St. Rumbold's tower skywalk was around the outside of the top of the tower, which would have provided more of a thrill looking down. On further review of the pictures, it looks like it remains within the upper parapet of the tower, which is decidedly less thrilling (but also likely less of a potential eyesore). I agree that it doesn't meet the criteria.

The call on Norway's Geirangerfjord skywalk also makes sense. Maybe if it were transparent like the balcony at Wulong, but since it isn't, I fully understand why it wouldn't meet the threshold.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#50 | Posted: 3 Nov 2019 08:00 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I looked up the Connection for "12 Apostles" to see if it had the Tomb of ST John (Basilica of St john at Ephesus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_St._John ). It doesn't.
But I then noticed another Connection for "Tombs of Biblical Figures". It has entries for
Ephesus - Tomb of St John (The Apostle)
Aleppo - Tomb of Zechariah (Father of John the Baptist)
Jerusalem - Tomb of Jesus
Samarkand - Tomb of Daniel
Vatican - Tomb of St Peter (The Apostle)
i.e Tombs for 2 of the Apostles.

The "12 Apostles" Connection has entries for
Armenian Monasteries - tomb of Apostle Thaddeus
Derbent - where St Thaddeus was traditionally "flayed alive"
Patmos - Tomb of St john (who may have been the Apostle or another "John" altogether)
Jerusalem - as the location for Apostles living/meeting in general
Santiago de Compostela - Tomb of St James (son of Zebedee)
Vatican - where St Peter was traditionally crucified (no mention of his )tomb")

There is overlap and inconsistency across these 2 "Connections".
a. There are tombs of 2 Apostles in the Apostles Connection which are not in the "Tombs of Biblical Figures" Connection - Armenian Mons for Thaddeus and Santiago de Compostela for St James
b. The 12 Apostles definition doesn't really say what the requirement is
c. As I understand it St Batholomew (NOT Thaddeus) was flayed/crucified at what might now be Derbent
d. In fact the remains of several Apostles are believed to be at St Peters - St James ("the Less") and St Philip. St Thaddeus is also known as St Jude" and his remains are also claimed to be in St Peters ("Sometime after his death, Saint Jude's body was brought from Beirut to Rome and placed in a crypt in St. Peter's Basilica which was visited by many devotees. Now his bones are in the left transept of St. Peter's Basilica under the main altar of St. Joseph in one tomb with the remains of the apostle Simon the Zealot. These were moved here on 27 December 1665") (Wiki)
e. Hebron has the tombs of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Esau and Leah in the Cave of the Patriarchs but didn't get amended on this Web site when it got inscribed

I am not sure of the best way "out". We have 2 intersecting but not totally overlapping "ideas"
a. Anywhere associated with any of the 12 Apostles including their (supposed/claimed) tombs but also where something significant happened to them
b. Tombs of ANY biblical figures

Do these 2 "ideas" need 2 Connections given the overlap on "tombs" since most of the Apostles Entries are for their tombs? I am inclined to drop the 12 Apostles Connection and ensure that all the tombs are correctly identified in the Tombs one. That would "lose" Jerusalem for the Apostles and Derbent for St Bartholomew (I can find no claimed location for his tomb)

Author Zos
Partaker
#51 | Posted: 3 Nov 2019 10:21 
Nanjing Hotspot - a good base for Jiangsu/Shandong

1. Imperial Tombs - several components at Nanjing center
2. Grand Canal - Several components around Nanjing. Yangzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou, Suzhou
3. Temple, Mansion and Cemetery of Confucius - Frequent fast trains to Qufu East in less than 2.5 hours. The site is less than 30 mins bus from the station
4. Taishan - frequent trains to Tai'an Railway station (<3h). Then bus 37 or bus 68 to Tianwai Village (<1h) for sightseeing bus to Mid Heaven Gate
5. Migratory Bird Sanctuaries - frequent bus to Yancheng (3.5h) or train to Yancheng (8Am and arrive at 1140). Bus K2 or K202 to Yancheng Nature Reserve for Rare Birds (It is a zoo/reserve in the buffer zone but abuts the core zone in the northeast corner and have viewing areas going into the core). You can see both wild and captive birds in the reserve
6. Classical Gardens of Suzhou - frequent trains to Suzhou (1.5h)

Plus some TWHS in the area too (for the future)
1. Chinese Section of Silk Roads - several components in Nanjing
2. City Walls of Ming and Qing Dynasties - Nanjing City Wall
3. Slender West Lake and Historic Urban Area in Yangzhou (some components included in Grand Canal)

Author Colvin
Partaker
#52 | Posted: 3 Nov 2019 15:37 | Edited by: Colvin 
Solivagant:
Do these 2 "ideas" need 2 Connections given the overlap on "tombs" since most of the Apostles Entries are for their tombs?

I think you can make a distinction between the two categories. Yes, the "Tombs of Biblical Figures" connection would include the tombs of the apostles, but it also holds tombs for other Biblical figures. I think if you focus the "12 Apostles" connection on the lives and deaths of the apostles, you can provide more variety than just the tombs of the apostles. For instance, in addition to Jerusalem being the site where the apostles lived and met, you can also include the Socotra Archipelago, where the apostle Thomas by traditional accounts brought Christianity while en route to India. Should Ukraine ever succeed in their extension to Saint Sophia Cathedral and Related Monastic Buildings, the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra, St. Andrew's Church would also be a potential addition to the 12 Apostles connection, since it was built on the traditional spot where St. Andrew brought Christianity to Kiev.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#53 | Posted: 3 Nov 2019 16:19 
Colvin:
I think you can make a distinction between the two categories

I don't really mind - but each needs to be fully populated and corrected if we are to keep both.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#54 | Posted: 3 Nov 2019 22:23 
I'd have to do some more research on both connections to see if there is anything more that can be filled in.

For the 12 Apostles connection, I might suggest that the connection stipulate that it applies to anything related to the lives and deaths of the 12 Apostles. This would cover sites where they traveled with Jesus, sites where they later traveled, and sites related to their deaths (both tombs and churches that by tradition have held relics from the apostles).

To further flesh out what is already included, yes, Bartholomew should be the apostle associated with being flayed at alive in Albanopolis, which some believe is Derbent. Another theory is that Albanopolis refers to Baku, where local tradition holds that he was martyred on the site of the Maiden Tower. Perhaps both locations should be listed as the possible location of Albanopolis, where Saint Bartholomew by tradition was flayed alive.

Here are some other possible additions:

Costiera Amalfitana: By tradition, relics of Saint Andrew are held in the Amalfi Cathedral in Amalfi (yes, I know this is also in the Religious Relics connection, but, I think World Heritage Sites directly related to the 12 Apostles should also be in the 12 Apostles connection)

Istanbul: By tradition Saint Andrew established the See of Byzantium, later known as Constantinople, then Istanbul. Former cathedral churches of the patriachate include Hagia Irene and Hagia Sophia.

Monastery of Geghard and the Upper Azat Valley: By tradition, Saint Thaddeus (Jude) brought the spear used to pierce Christ on the cross to Geghard. Relics from Saint Andrew and Saint John by tradition were also later brought to Geghard.

Syracuse and the rocky Necropolis of Pantalica: By tradition, Saint Peter founded a church in Syracuse. Syracuse is now the seat of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Siracusa.

Author elsslots
Admin
#55 | Posted: 3 Nov 2019 23:53 
Thanks Colvin for the additions! I have added them, as well as updated the definition for the Connection 12 Apostles.

Solivagant, I have updated the Tombs of Biblical figures connection as well with your suggestions.

Author elsslots
Admin
#56 | Posted: 4 Nov 2019 10:57 | Edited by: elsslots 
Zos:
Nanjing Hotspot - a good base for Jiangsu/Shandong

1. Imperial Tombs - several components at Nanjing center
2. Grand Canal - Several components around Nanjing. Yangzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou, Suzhou
3. Temple, Mansion and Cemetery of Confucius - Frequent fast trains to Qufu East in less than 2.5 hours. The site is less than 30 mins bus from the station
4. Taishan - frequent trains to Tai'an Railway station (<3h). Then bus 37 or bus 68 to Tianwai Village (<1h) for sightseeing bus to Mid Heaven Gate
5. Migratory Bird Sanctuaries - frequent bus to Yancheng (3.5h) or train to Yancheng (8Am and arrive at 1140). Bus K2 or K202 to Yancheng Nature Reserve for Rare Birds (It is a zoo/reserve in the buffer zone but abuts the core zone in the northeast corner and have viewing areas going into the core). You can see both wild and captive birds in the reserve
6. Classical Gardens of Suzhou - frequent trains to Suzhou (1.5h)

Will add this one as well

elsslots:
4. Taishan - frequent trains to Tai'an Railway station (<3h). Then bus 37 or bus 68 to Tianwai Village (<1h) for sightseeing bus to Mid Heaven Gate

This one sounds like a stretch for a 1 day return trip

And this one as well - you just visited it, did you stay overnight?
elsslots:
5. Migratory Bird Sanctuaries - frequent bus to Yancheng (3.5h) or train to Yancheng (8Am and arrive at 1140). Bus K2 or K202 to Yancheng Nature Reserve for Rare Birds (It is a zoo/reserve in the buffer zone but abuts the core zone in the northeast corner and have viewing areas going into the core). You can see both wild and captive birds in the reserve


Author Solivagant
Partaker
#57 | Posted: 11 Nov 2019 02:22 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Re the addition of "Pumping Stations" to the Connection list
a. Kinderkijk should be added - its famous windmills are "pumping stations" and it also includes the Wisboom Pumping station - originally steam but now diesel.
b. Might it be better to include in the definition "which contribute to the OUV" so as to avoid miscellaneous and modern pumping stations?
c. The Kinderdijk windmills raise the issue of potential overlap with that Connection. I have given it a quick run through and certainly the Beemster Windmill was for pumping water rather than for grinding corn etc but I don't think there is a massive overlap
d. Rjukan Nomination file re town of Rjukan - "Some of the town's waterworks buildings also remain, including the pressure reservoir and pumping station."
e. I suspect that the many mining sites on the list in addition to Ombilin could yield a number of pumping stations. I haven't done run through all of them but one clear omission is the "Cornwall and West Devon" mines. The iconic above ground structures are the chimneys and housings for the water pumps and the mines owed their existence to early water pumping steam technology. So - East Pool mine is a typical example.
f. Heritage of Mercury - Idrija is another mine where water pumping was important and historic pumps remain. So the nomination file states "The newest Kamšt water pump built in Idrija and still preserved dates back to 1790. It was used to pump water from the mine all until 1948..... Using a special mast structure it pumped water from a depth of up to 280 metres. It has been preserved to this very day and is considered one of the most important technical monuments in Slovenia." (Nom File) . See https://travelslovenia.org/kamst/
g. Tarnowski Gory - "the Adolph Shaft Waterworks with remains of a 19th century steam-powered water-pumping station;" (AB eval)
h. Zollverein - Section 3 of Nomination File- "Description" includes a subsection on "Pit Heaps and Mining subsidences" and several "Pumping Stations are included - e.g "At the Essen-Schonnebeck pumping station, a 500 m long section of a developed bricklined drainage canal has been preserved. It documents the mine´s activities relating to the control of the gravitational flow into receiving waters"
i. Erzegebirge - Numerous examples of pumping equipment e.g "In Joseph Schacht, at the level of the Adam Stolln (adit), two cast-iron water-column engines (built 1833/1863), represent a remarkable survival of pumping equipment that is relatively complete and in its original location. These are set in an architecturally fine, and visually impressive, masonry engine chamber and balance chamber." (Nom File)

Author Caspar
Partaker
#58 | Posted: 11 Nov 2019 07:06 
Solivagant
I just stumbled over the phallic connection and thought this should be an easy one even if one confined it to manmade symbols since it is common in many cultures for fertility. There is a famous example in the Mongolian Orkhon Valley and probably in the core zone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkhorin_Rock.
In Hinduism Phalluses are a common symbol for Shiva called Lingam, supposedly a "cosmic pillar of fire". Following the Wikipedia article they were already found in Mohenjodaro. With a quick search I found an example in Hampi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam#/media/File:Linga_Temple_1.jpg, There seems another one in kandariya mahadeva temple, khajuraho (besides the many erotic scenes all over the temple). With these three examples we had already a base for a phallic statue connection which could be easily expanded...

Author Caspar
Partaker
#59 | Posted: 11 Nov 2019 07:16 
Colvin:
Syracuse and the rocky Necropolis of Pantalica: By tradition, Saint Peter founded a church in Syracuse. Syracuse is now the seat of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Siracusa.

Beside Peter also Paul is said to have made a stop in Syracuse for three days and to have even brought christianity to Sicily. Following Acts of the Apostles, 28:11-13.

"After three months we put out to sea in a ship that had wintered on the island. It was an Alexandrian ship with the figurehead of the twin gods Castor and Pollux. We put in at Syracuse and stayed there three days. From there we set sail and arrived at Rhegium.*

Supposedly he preached at the place where now the Chiesa di San Giovanni Battista stands.

Author Caspar
Partaker
#60 | Posted: 11 Nov 2019 07:44 
Solivagant
A few comments on Solivagants article about the Modernismo connection: Many WH sites are officially limited to a certain epoch like Tarragona to the roman remains. If you look at the maps Tarragonas WHS includes the Cathedral and almost the entire old town. There is for example the Mausoleu de Jaume I in the town hall that is clearly within the boundaries of the map called "the circus". If you look at the endless book of maps for the camino de Santiago you find also the Palacio episcopal by Gaudi inscribed. In Mexico City at least the splendid Palacio de Bellas Artes is included in the core zone!

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