World Heritage Site

for World Heritage Travellers



Forum: Start | Profile | Search |         Website: Start | The List | Community |
Connections www.worldheritagesite.org Forum / Connections /  
 

Reduced from broader TWHS

 
 
Page  Page 2 of 2:  « Previous  1  2

Author jonathanfr
Partaker
#16 | Posted: 1 Jun 2018 06:22 
In fact, the list I gave you is an artisanal list made by myself, of sites that I saw at one moment on the official Tentative Lists, then that were removed without appearing in our former WHS list. It is a compilation that I have made over the years in an excel file.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#17 | Posted: 1 Jun 2018 07:03 
jonathanfr:
Registered #16 | Posted: Today 06:22 Reply Quote  
In fact, the list I gave you is an artisanal list made by myself, of sites that I saw at one moment on the official Tentative Lists, then that were removed without appearing in our former WHS list. It is a compilation that I have made over the years in an excel file.

"Over the years"????
Our "former t list" list has only been going since 2015!! Eg denali was removed from the US T list years before that!! Can you not be more specific about the years and papers you looked at?

Author jonathanfr
Partaker
#18 | Posted: 1 Jun 2018 08:56 | Edited by: jonathanfr 
Here are my sources :

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0011/001128/112880Eo.pdf
Italie Area Archeologica di Saepinum e tratturi
Italie Contesti lacustri: S.Giulio, Isole Borromee e Villa Taranto a Pallanza
Italie Parco Archeologico dell'Appia Antica
Italie Sacra di San Michele
Italie Ville della nobilta' pontificia nel Lazio
Slovaquie Breakthrough of the Dunajec River

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/1998/whc-98-conf203-9e.pdf
Espagne Casco histórico de Plasencia
Espagne La Ruta del vino y la cultura en los pueblos mediterráneos, La Rioja
Espagne Paisaje del Cister (Ampliación de Poblet)
Espagne Paisajes y Rutas del Quijote, Castilla-La Mancha
Espagne Patrimonio Cultural Judío, Castilla-La Mancha
Espagne Real Monasterio de San Juan de la Peña y su entorno, Aragón
Espagne Ruta minero-industrial, Castilla-La Mancha
Espagne Via de la plata, Extremadura

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/1999/whc-99-conf204-6e.pdf
Espagne Acropole (St-Michel, St-Pierre, Ste-Marie)
Espagne Basilique de Saint Jean [Palencia]
Espagne Cathédrale de l'Annonciation [Grenade]
Espagne Conjunto de la Villa de Laguardia, Alava-Araba
Espagne Conjunto fortificado de Pamplona
Espagne Conjunto Monumental de las Salinas de Añana, Alava-Araba
Espagne Corral de Comedias (Théatre de la Comédie) [Almagro]
Espagne Eglise de Santiago
Espagne Eglise de St-Michel d' Escalada [Gradefes (Leon)]
Espagne El parque etnológico de Torre del Ram, Punta Nati y ses Truquerias, Ciudadela. Menorca
Espagne Ensemble arquéologique d'Ampurias
Espagne Ensemble du bourg de Morella
Espagne Ensemble historique de la ville - Ciudad Rodrigo
Espagne Ensemble historique de la ville de Arcos de la Frontera
Espagne Ensemble historique du bourg - Miranda del Castañar (Salamanque)
Espagne Ensemble historique du bourg - Santillana del Mar
Espagne Ensemble historique du bourg de Betancuria
Espagne Ermitage de San Baudelio de Berlanga
Espagne Fortificaciones abaluartadas en la frontera hispanoportuquesa, Castilla-Leon
Espagne Hôpital Royal de la Santa Cruz
Espagne La villa de Pedraza, Segovia
Espagne Las Cañadas de La Mesta, Castilla-León
Espagne Las canteras de s'Hostal (Ciutadella), Robadones (es Castell), Binicalssitx (Ferreries) y Santa Ponça (Alaior). Menorca
Espagne Las Herrerias [Almeria]
Espagne Massif des Ancares
Espagne Molinos de viento del Campo de Cartagena
Espagne Monastère de Santa María la Real
Espagne Monastère Royal de Las Huelgas
Espagne Nord-ouest de l' Ile de Ténériffe
Espagne Nuevo Baztán, Madrid
Espagne Paisaje Minero de la Sierra de Cartagena
Espagne Paisajes Naturales de Canarias
Espagne Palais Royal [Madrid]
Espagne Parc National d'Ordesa - Viñamala
Espagne Parc Naturel de Monfragüe
Espagne Pico Sacro
Espagne Pont romain d'Alcantara
Espagne Quartier historique de Trujillo
Espagne Ribeira Sacra
Espagne Rodalquilar
Espagne Ruta colombina
Espagne Salines de San Fernando
Espagne Salon du Prado, Musée des Sciences et Jardin Botanique
Espagne Santuario de Loyola, Azpeitia-Gipuzkoa
Espagne Site Pittoresque de la Cote Nord-Ouest
Espagne Taulas, Talayots et Navetas. Monuments mégalithiques
Mexique Système de Monastères du XVIe siècle au nord de l'état de Morelos

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2002/whc-02-conf201-12f.pdf
Italie Insediamenti rupestri (Puglia)
Italie Parco Archeologico Urbano e colline metallifere (Volterra)
Italie Parco Nazionale della Calabria
Italie Residenza Papale e quartiere San Pellegrino
Italie Stagni e siti archeologici del Golfo di Oristano, Isola Maluventu

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2007/whc07-31com-8af.pdf
Chine Beihai Park
Chine Chengyang Yongji Bridge
Chine Foguang Monastery
Chine Foguang Temple
Chine Historical Remains at Yuan Shangdu
Chine Historical Residential Courtyards in Dingcun
Chine Niuheliang Archaeological Site
Chine Sakya Tower of Fogong Monastery
Chine Songshan Area
Chine The Ancient Town of Tongli
Chine The Ancient Town of Zhouzhuang
Chine The Ancient Venetian Township in the South of Yangtze River - Luzhi
Chine The Ancient Venetian Township in the South of Yangtze River - Nanxun
Chine The Ancient Venetian Township in the South of Yangtze River - Wuzhen
Chine The Ancient Venetian Township in the South of Yangtze River - Xitang
Chine The City Wall of Xian
Chine The Remains of Chang'an City of the Han Dynasty
Chine The Ruins of Daming Palace of the Tang Dynasty
Chine The Sakyamuni Pagoda at Fogong Temple
États-Unis d'Amérique Aleutian Islands Unit of the Alaska Maritime National Wildlife Refuge
États-Unis d'Amérique Denali National Park
États-Unis d'Amérique Frank Lloyd Wright Home and Studio
États-Unis d'Amérique Gates of the Artic National Park
États-Unis d'Amérique Glacier National Park
États-Unis d'Amérique Katmai National Park
États-Unis d'Amérique Trinity Site
Inde Tomb of Sher Shah Suri, Sasaram, Bihar
Islande Viðmýri Turf Church
République de Corée Samnyon (Fortress) Wall
République de Corée Tomb of King Munyong

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/fr/rapbur89.pdf
Espagne Monastery of Sant Pere de Rodes

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#19 | Posted: 1 Jun 2018 11:10 | Edited by: Solivagant 
jonathanfr:
Here are my sources :

Thanks jonathonfr.
Well that makes things a good bit clearer. In fact ALL of your sources date back to UNESCO documents of 2007 or earlier and, in every case but two we had ALREADY had the opportunity to obtain from them the changes to the T Lists which had occurred. Exactly how we missed the ones on jonathonfr's list I know not but it is "good" to know that these aren't from completely new sources.
The list of documents we had is here - https://www.worldheritagesite.org/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=3&topic=94#ms g10066
A difference is that, whereas ALL of the documents we had referenced before were WHC documents - a number of those referenced by jonathonfr are from the Bureau meeting of the same year (albeit often held in a different location). I have checked the documents and apart from different headings the content seems the same. He however access a couple of years which we didn't - one bacause our WHC document didn't have the detail (1989) and another because we didin't go that far forward with WHCs (2007)
So the 6 sets of docs referred to above by jonathonfr are (in his sequence)
a. WHC 1997 - Naples - http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0011/001128/112880Eo.pdf
b. WHC 1998 - Kyoto - http://whc.unesco.org/archive/1998/whc-98-conf203-9e.pdf
c. Bureau 1999 - Paris - http://whc.unesco.org/archive/1999/whc-99-conf204-6e.pdf
d. Bureau 2002 - Paris - http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2002/whc-02-conf201-12f.pdf
e. WHC 2007 - Chrischurch - http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2007/whc07-31com-8af.pdf
e. Bureau 1989 - Paris - http://whc.unesco.org/archive/fr/rapbur89.pdf

For each of these years we had previously used documents as follows -
a. WHC 1997- Naples - the same
b. WHC 1998 - Kyoto - the same
c. WHC 1999 - Marrakesh - http://whc.unesco.org/archive/fr/rapbur89.pdf
d. WHC 2002 - Budapest - http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2002/whc-02-conf202-20reve.pdf
e. WHC 2007 - Christchurch - We never accessed WHC's as recent as 2007
f. WHC 1989 - Paris - we recorded "WHC 13 1989 Paris - T List not on Agenda and no updates"

So - I think we understand better where we might have missed out "former T List entries" such as Denali and Trinity. What we do NOT yet know is how many of the sites on jonathonfr's "list" are actually "former T List sites" which we had not previously identified. It could be, for instance that many of them are the same as the 5 I previously identified above (Al Balid, La Rabida etc) - i.e they are either inscribed as part of a bigger inscription or are still on the T List as part of a bigger T List entry. The only way to do this is to work through each of the entries on the jonathonfr list and try to "explain" them - which requires both "knowledge" about the site and "effort" (making web searches etc to try to understand what each entry is and how it might be related to other (T)WHS!!!! The answers don't just "pop out" for free if you don't already "know" the answer. Also - we might be duplicating a lot of the work we have already done - Does Assif remember all those T LIst sites from Italy and Spain? Are there new ones among them?
If we are to do it - is its something we can share out?? Perhaps attacking a "WHC"/country at a time?? Whenever we do identify a genuine "Former T List" entry we also need to identify the year it was placed on the T List and the year it was removed.
This issue isn't "Urgent" I guess and in a few weeks we are all going to be immersed in the events of this year's WHC. So -when to do - do we leave it until winter or make a start now?

By the way - if we are going to pursue this subject we should perhaps do so under the "correct" Topic -
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=8&topic=2068
It isn't really about the Connection about "Reduced from Former TWHS - which I presume we now all agree should be maintained (and Puebla/Cholula added?). There may yet be more to add - though I suspect not that many

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#20 | Posted: 1 Jun 2018 12:20 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
Thanks for turning those up jonathanfr

Solivagant:
Is this something we can share out?? Perhaps attacking a "WHC"/country at a time?? Whenever we do identify a genuine "Former T List" entry we also need to identify the year it was placed on the T List and the year it was removed.

Just so I make sure we have the right list, is it just the ones up in post #18 (quoted below) that we aren't sure if they tally with other WHS/TWHS/FTWHS?
-or are there more of them in the earlier posts that we are unsure of?
-or do we not yet have a definitive list and part of the task is deduplicating jonathanfr list with those we already have?

jonathanfr:
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0011/001128/112880Eo.pdf
Italie Area Archeologica di Saepinum e tratturi
Italie Contesti lacustri: S.Giulio, Isole Borromee e Villa Taranto a Pallanza
Italie Parco Archeologico dell'Appia Antica
Italie Sacra di San Michele
Italie Ville della nobilta' pontificia nel Lazio
Slovaquie Breakthrough of the Dunajec River

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/1998/whc-98-conf203-9e.pdf
Espagne Casco histórico de Plasencia
Espagne La Ruta del vino y la cultura en los pueblos mediterráneos, La Rioja
Espagne Paisaje del Cister (Ampliación de Poblet)
Espagne Paisajes y Rutas del Quijote, Castilla-La Mancha
Espagne Patrimonio Cultural Judío, Castilla-La Mancha
Espagne Real Monasterio de San Juan de la Peña y su entorno, Aragón
Espagne Ruta minero-industrial, Castilla-La Mancha
Espagne Via de la plata, Extremadura

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/1999/whc-99-conf204-6e.pdf
Espagne Acropole (St-Michel, St-Pierre, Ste-Marie)
Espagne Basilique de Saint Jean [Palencia]
Espagne Cathédrale de l'Annonciation [Grenade]
Espagne Conjunto de la Villa de Laguardia, Alava-Araba
Espagne Conjunto fortificado de Pamplona
Espagne Conjunto Monumental de las Salinas de Añana, Alava-Araba
Espagne Corral de Comedias (Théatre de la Comédie) [Almagro]
Espagne Eglise de Santiago
Espagne Eglise de St-Michel d' Escalada [Gradefes (Leon)]
Espagne El parque etnológico de Torre del Ram, Punta Nati y ses Truquerias, Ciudadela. Menorca
Espagne Ensemble arquéologique d'Ampurias
Espagne Ensemble du bourg de Morella
Espagne Ensemble historique de la ville - Ciudad Rodrigo
Espagne Ensemble historique de la ville de Arcos de la Frontera
Espagne Ensemble historique du bourg - Miranda del Castañar (Salamanque)
Espagne Ensemble historique du bourg - Santillana del Mar
Espagne Ensemble historique du bourg de Betancuria
Espagne Ermitage de San Baudelio de Berlanga
Espagne Fortificaciones abaluartadas en la frontera hispanoportuquesa, Castilla-Leon
Espagne Hôpital Royal de la Santa Cruz
Espagne La villa de Pedraza, Segovia
Espagne Las Cañadas de La Mesta, Castilla-León
Espagne Las canteras de s'Hostal (Ciutadella), Robadones (es Castell), Binicalssitx (Ferreries) y Santa Ponça (Alaior). Menorca
Espagne Las Herrerias [Almeria]
Espagne Massif des Ancares
Espagne Molinos de viento del Campo de Cartagena
Espagne Monastère de Santa María la Real
Espagne Monastère Royal de Las Huelgas
Espagne Nord-ouest de l' Ile de Ténériffe
Espagne Nuevo Baztán, Madrid
Espagne Paisaje Minero de la Sierra de Cartagena
Espagne Paisajes Naturales de Canarias
Espagne Palais Royal [Madrid]
Espagne Parc National d'Ordesa - Viñamala
Espagne Parc Naturel de Monfragüe
Espagne Pico Sacro
Espagne Pont romain d'Alcantara
Espagne Quartier historique de Trujillo
Espagne Ribeira Sacra
Espagne Rodalquilar
Espagne Ruta colombina
Espagne Salines de San Fernando
Espagne Salon du Prado, Musée des Sciences et Jardin Botanique
Espagne Santuario de Loyola, Azpeitia-Gipuzkoa
Espagne Site Pittoresque de la Cote Nord-Ouest
Espagne Taulas, Talayots et Navetas. Monuments mégalithiques
Mexique Système de Monastères du XVIe siècle au nord de l'état de Morelos

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2002/whc-02-conf201-12f.pdf
Italie Insediamenti rupestri (Puglia)
Italie Parco Archeologico Urbano e colline metallifere (Volterra)
Italie Parco Nazionale della Calabria
Italie Residenza Papale e quartiere San Pellegrino
Italie Stagni e siti archeologici del Golfo di Oristano, Isola Maluventu

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2007/whc07-31com-8af.pdf
Chine Beihai Park
Chine Chengyang Yongji Bridge
Chine Foguang Monastery
Chine Foguang Temple
Chine Historical Remains at Yuan Shangdu
Chine Historical Residential Courtyards in Dingcun
Chine Niuheliang Archaeological Site
Chine Sakya Tower of Fogong Monastery
Chine Songshan Area
Chine The Ancient Town of Tongli
Chine The Ancient Town of Zhouzhuang
Chine The Ancient Venetian Township in the South of Yangtze River - Luzhi
Chine The Ancient Venetian Township in the South of Yangtze River - Nanxun
Chine The Ancient Venetian Township in the South of Yangtze River - Wuzhen
Chine The Ancient Venetian Township in the South of Yangtze River - Xitang
Chine The City Wall of Xian
Chine The Remains of Chang'an City of the Han Dynasty
Chine The Ruins of Daming Palace of the Tang Dynasty
Chine The Sakyamuni Pagoda at Fogong Temple
États-Unis d'Amérique Aleutian Islands Unit of the Alaska Maritime National Wildlife Refuge
États-Unis d'Amérique Denali National Park
États-Unis d'Amérique Frank Lloyd Wright Home and Studio
États-Unis d'Amérique Gates of the Artic National Park
États-Unis d'Amérique Glacier National Park
États-Unis d'Amérique Katmai National Park
États-Unis d'Amérique Trinity Site
Inde Tomb of Sher Shah Suri, Sasaram, Bihar
Islande Viðmýri Turf Church
République de Corée Samnyon (Fortress) Wall
République de Corée Tomb of King Munyong

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/fr/rapbur89.pdf
Espagne Monastery of Sant Pere de Rodes

If so I think as Solivagant recommends we should move them to a new thread and start hunting them down.

Some starters for 10:
Iceland
Viðmýri Turf Church - is part of the current T-list Site, the Turf House Tradition listed under the name: Víðimýrarkirkja

South Korea
Just realised both of those are accounted for as including former TWHS so think I may have the wrong end of a stick.

As a little side project I would also be keen to go through and map the locations of all the Former T-List sites.
Now I know this may serve no particular purpose and be a low priority, I just wouldn't mind having a little side project to work on. If we do anything with the data then great, if not then it will just keep me out of mischief, though toddler wrangling duties mean it may be slow going.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#21 | Posted: 1 Jun 2018 12:58 | Edited by: Solivagant 
meltwaterfalls:
Just realised both of those are accounted for as including former TWHS so think I may have the wrong end of a stick.

Not at all!
Samnyon Fortress Wall is still part of Korea's T List as part of "Ancient Mountain Fortresses"
Tomb of King Munyong got inscribed as part of "Baekje Historic Area" in 2015
i.e NEITHER of these is a "Former T List" entry even though they have "disappeared" as separate entries either as "Inscribed" or as "Current T List"
I suspect that we will finish up "explaining" most of the list (ie. the one you have copied) in this way - but undoubtedly there are SOME entries on the list which ARE "Former T LIst sites" which we have missed! E.g For USA - Trinity and Denali. Which is why the question arises as to whether we should do the exercise. jonathonfr has undoubtedly raised an issue but I suspect nowhere near as big as it first seemed.

meltwaterfalls:
As a little side project I would also be keen to go through and map the locations of all the Former T-List sites.

Would it be difficult Els/Nan to show the locations of these at least on the individual site map for former T List sites?? Perhaps to add them to the same country level map as shows Inscribed and T List sites with yet another "colour" would complicate those maps too much?

Author Assif
Partaker
#22 | Posted: 1 Jun 2018 19:21 
jonathanfr, thank you for your list. I agree it would be worthwhile to check for missing FTWHS on your list. I thought I went through all Bureau meetings, but I certainly may have missed some sites.

Solivagant:
Does Assif remember all those T LIst sites from Italy and Spain? Are there new ones among them?

Very flattering indeed. I do remember many of them, but you don't have to rely on my memory for most of them. They appear in the history of the site they became, be it a WHS or a TWHS. This means that when trying to find out whether there are missing FTWHS for a country what you need to do is go through the web pages of all of its TWHS and WHS and see if the site you are looking for can be traced to their histories. I think most cases could be solved this way.

BTW - I am in favour of metlwaterfall's proposal to map the FTWHS. This will also allow us a simple way to see what locations are already present in WHS or TWHS.

Author Assif
Partaker
#23 | Posted: 3 Jun 2018 02:37 
I have now found out that we have also got another connection for reduced TWHS:
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/connection/Part+of+Cultural+nomination+rejected

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#24 | Posted: 3 Jun 2018 02:58 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Assif:
I have now found out that we have also got another connection for reduced TWHS:

And NO duplication between the 2 "Lists"!
There WAS supposed to be a difference in terms of timing as to when the reduction took place - though whether this stands up to "analysis" now is another matter! Also - quite why the 2nd only applies to "Cultural" WHS I am not quite sure - I think it might have had something to do with the fact that Natural sites have far more frequent adjustments to their boundaries and we usually cannot know from the T List description what area was originally intended to be inscribed when the T List entry was first made. For "Cultural sites" if the original description mentions a town or building and it is excluded then that is somewhat clearer. In trying to identify and track such changes we face much the same problems as UNESCO as to when/when not to consider a boundary modification "minor" - In determining "significance" in leaving out a part of the original T List, when do we stop during the continuum between "leaving out an entire town/mountain etc" and "leaving out a few sq metres" ?

REDUCED FROM BROADER TWHS
WHS that were originally nominated to cover a broader area or more locations, but were reduced to the current area during the process before AB evaluation. For reductions during/after AB evaluation, see this connection: Part of Cultural nomination rejected.

PART OF CULTURAL NOMINATION REJECTED
Cultural WHS whose original nominations included a separate site which was rejected during the evaluation process.

Author Assif
Partaker
#25 | Posted: 3 Jun 2018 13:10 
I think Philippi sould be moved from Reduced from broader TWHS to Part of cultural nomination rejected.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#26 | Posted: 3 Jun 2018 14:59 
Assif:
I think Philippi sould be moved from Reduced from broader TWHS to Part of cultural nomination rejected.

Agreed - ICOMOS just did not support the Battlefield even though Greece had wanted it and the Nomination file included it.

Page  Page 2 of 2:  « Previous  1  2 
Connections www.worldheritagesite.org Forum / Connections /
 Reduced from broader TWHS

Your Reply Click this icon to move up to the quoted message


 ?
Only registered users are allowed to post here. Please, enter your username/password details upon posting a message, or register first.

 
 
 
www.worldheritagesite.org Forum Powered by Chat Forum Software miniBB ®
 ⇑