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Out or in doubt #29

 
 
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Author elsslots
Admin
#1 | Posted: 20 Aug 2016 06:24 
Hamburg's Speicherstadt & Kontorhaus District: Sea Port or River Port?

We have the definition of River Port as "Ports along rivers which are not accesible to seagoing ships." - I tend to go with Sea Port

See https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontorhausviertel#/media/File:Karte_Weltkulturerbe_Spei cherstadt_und_Kontorhausviertel_mit_Chilehaus.png

Author Colvin
Partaker
#2 | Posted: 20 Aug 2016 08:39 
I think I would lean toward "sea port", since these warehouses were built to support the Port of Hamburg, which is a sea port. Perhaps Nan has an opinion on this, too?

Author pikkle
Partaker
#3 | Posted: 20 Aug 2016 22:05 
"Relict seaport"? Though the ships would of course continue up the Elbe in the past or transfer to river-going boats, I still consider it a pinnacle of 19th century port-building.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#4 | Posted: 23 Aug 2016 11:20 
Colvin:
I think I would lean toward "sea port", since these warehouses were built to support the Port of Hamburg, which is a sea port. Perhaps Nan has an opinion on this, too?

Hamburg is a sea port. You even have the tide in the harbor. Hamburg marked the point where the goods are unloaded and put onto river boats for further distribution. If you wanted to, you can mark it as both.

The Speicherstadt seems to be owned by HHLA, that is a communal company (http://www.hhla-immobilien.de/immobilien/ueberuns-geschichte-speicherstadt-1954-heut e.php). The Chilehaus is owned by Union Invest, though, i.e. "in private ownership" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilehaus). Same would apply to most buildings around Sprinklerhof.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#5 | Posted: 23 Aug 2016 11:23 
nfmungard:
i.e. "in private ownership" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilehaus). Same would apply to most buildings around Sprinklerhof.

By definition it would have to be fully in private ownership. In this case it's just 50% if you consider HHLA which is still a private company a public entity.

Author Colvin
Partaker
#6 | Posted: 28 Aug 2016 02:58 | Edited by: Colvin 
I'm amused by the "Bombarded by the British Navy" connection that was recently started (kudos to whoever thought of it!). With such a rich naval history leading to a sun-covered empire, who hasn't had the opportunity to be bombarded by the Royal Navy? The United States even used this theme for their national anthem. With that said, here are a few more sites that seem to fit this connection:

Forts and Castles, Volta, Greater Accra, Central and Western Regions -- the Royal Navy under Captain Thomas Shirley fired upon Dutch-occupied Fort St. Jago from the HMS Leander during the Battle of Elmina in 1782 link

Old City of Acre -- the Royal Navy and the Austrian Navy bombarded the port and city of Acre during the ouster of Muhammed Ali Pasha in November 1840. link

Fortifications on the Caribbean Side of Panama: Portobelo-San Lorenzo -- the Royal Navy bombarded the Spanish-held Todo Fierro fort and Santiago fortress in Panama during the Battle of Porto Bello in November 1739 as part of the War of Jenkins' Ear. link

Island of Gorée -- the Royal Navy under Admiral Augustus Keppel bombarded the French-occupied fortress on the island and then captured it in December 1758 during the Seven Years War. link

San Pedro de la Roca Castle -- the Royal Navy under Rear Admiral Charles Knowles unsuccessfully bombarded this Cuban, Spanish-occupied castle, also called the Castillo del Morro, in April 1748 during the War of Jenkins' Ear. link

Stone Town of Zanzibar -- the Royal Navy launched a bombardment of the Sultan's palace during the very brief Anglo-Zanzibar War in August 1896. link

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#7 | Posted: 28 Aug 2016 04:40 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Colvin:
here are a few more sites that seem to fit this connection

We can add the following too
Havana - 1762 during the 7 Year's War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Havana_(1762)
Quebec - 1690 Strictly by the American Colonists who were later to become the "US" rather than the "British"! Failed but led to the construction of the defences we see today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Quebec_(1690)

I had rather hoped to find 3 "inscribed" bombardments by the US Navy (!!), Of course for most of the 19th C the US was fully occupied in taking over the land of the N American natives by armed force on land so had little "need" for Naval Bombardments - and it wasn't until the end of the C that it too started employing its navy to take Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Philippines as well as to intervene in numerous other Caribbean and Central American countries!
So I have only found
San Juan - 1898 during Spanish American War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_San_Juan
Apparently the decision was made to capture Vigan by land (although the US navy was nearby). Manila fell after a sea blockade rather than bombardment and Cuba was captured by sea battles and land forces rather than sea bombardment of cities such as Havana.

Author Allan
Partaker
#8 | Posted: 28 Aug 2016 05:48 
Solivagant:
I had rather hoped to find 3 "inscribed" bombardments by the US Navy (!!)

First things that came to mind: Ogasawara Islands and the Battle of Iwo Jima, and Bikini Attoll and the Battle of Kwajalein. Both featured extensive bonbardment by the US navy before the amphibious invasion during WWII. Plus San Juan, that might be your three.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#9 | Posted: 28 Aug 2016 07:05 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Allan:
Ogasawara Islands and the Battle of Iwo Jima, and Bikini Attoll and the Battle of Kwajalein.

Nice attempt - but were the inscribed areas "bombarded"?
Iwo Jima was certainly well bombarded from sea and air but is not included in the inscribed areas of the Ogasawara Islands.
This detailed day by day account of the battle for the islands only mentions bombardment of Iwo jima. Chichijima (which IS inscribed) only appears to have been strafed from the air and was not actually captured before the surrender? I can't find mention of other inscribed islands. See - http://www.combinedfleet.com/OgasawaraEMB.htm

Bikini Atoll, as a small "forward post"( "throughout the conflict the Bikini station served as an outpost for the Japanese military headquarters in the Marshall Islands, Kwajalein Atoll.") also seems to have been "spared" the naval attacks faced by Kwajelein - which is not part of the WHS and whose capture in effect ended the conflict in the Marshall Islands. See - https://www.bikiniatoll.com/history.html

I have also looked at the Second Barbary War of 1815-16 but it appears that the US was able to come to an agreement with the Bey of Algiers without a full bombardment of the city which the British and Dutch found necessary later that year to stop the raiding and free the Christian slaves.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#10 | Posted: 28 Aug 2016 07:33 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Whilst investigating the above subject I have identified another Connection to do with the USA's "imperial history"!!!

"Once Claimed for the USA"
Phoenix Islands
claimed by US under the Guano Islands Act of 1856 ("federal legislation passed by the U.S. Congress that enables citizens of the U.S. to take possession of islands containing guano deposits. The islands can be located anywhere, so long as they are not occupied and not within the jurisdiction of other governments" - Wiki). UK also claimed them as part of Gilbert and Ellis. Situation not fully resolved until Treaty of Tarawa between US and Kiribati in 1979 when some (but not all) islands were "given up" by the US.

Ogasawara
"Commodore Perry's flagship USS Susquehanna (1850) anchored for three days in Chichijima's harbor on June 15, 1853 on the way to his historic visit to Tokyo Bay to open up the country to western trade. Perry also laid claim to the island for the United States for a coaling station for steamships, appointing Nathaniel Savory as an official agent of the US Navy and formed a governing council with Savory as the leader. On behalf of the US government, Perry "purchased" 50 acres (200,000 m2) from Savory" (Wiki). The US appears to have simply acquiesced in Japan's 1862 formal claim over all the Bonin Islands

Wrangel Island
"A party from the USRC Corwin landed on Wrangel Island on August 12, 1881, claimed the island for the United States and named it "New Columbia". The expedition, under the command of Calvin L. Hooper, was seeking the Jeannette and two missing whalers in addition to conducting general exploration. It included naturalist John Muir, who published the first description of Wrangel Island." In 1916 Tsarist Russia claimed the island and in 1924 the USSR established a base there.

Author Allan
Partaker
#11 | Posted: 28 Aug 2016 08:49 
Solivagant:
Nice attempt - but were the inscribed areas "bombarded"?

Darn. My fault for not reading properly. Did make me wonder though if there was a potential for a "Bombed by US Airforce" though.

Mỹ Sơn - "a large majority of its architecture was destroyed by US carpet bombing during a single week of the Vietnam War" Wikipedia

Sites of Japan Meji Industrial Revolution (Likely several components, but specifically the Bombing of Yawata Steel Works - mostly a failure but at least one bomb hit the site: "These photos showed that only a single bomb had landed within the Imperial Iron and Steel Works complex, and it had hit a power house 3,700 feet (1,100 m) from the nearest coke oven."

Complex of Huế Monuments "A-4 Skyhawks dropped bombs and napalm on the Citadel" during the Battle of Hue in 1968.

I'm sure there are more, especially in regards to WWII and The Korean war. Would that count as a potential connection?

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#12 | Posted: 28 Aug 2016 09:08 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Allan:
Would that count as a potential connection?

We already have "connections" for
Damaged in War since WWII - http://www.worldheritagesite.org/tags/tag.php?id=1166. Your suggestion for Meiji seems ok (the only issue is that the definition requires "severely damaged" - is 1 bomb near the coke works enough?? I will leave that to ELS as "judge"!! Or maybe you can find more examples of damage?? We did allow 1 Iraqi rocket hitting Isfahan's Majid e-jame to create a Connection for it but that was perhaps more "surprising" and noteworthy on such an ancient building which was individually inscribed than 1 bomb landing somewhere inside a Japanese steel works during the whole of WWII? If it had damaged the Glover House then that would have been a different matter! Hue is already Connected, as is My Son - but in a different Connection. (ELS -shouldn't the Connection for bombing of My Son be moved to "Damaged in war since WWII" rather than "Destroyed during invasion" which was really meant for "older" wars - and the US wasn't really "invading" anyway?? Similarly the damage to Museuminsel has been put in both the invasion and WWII connections. Is this dual entry really justified?? It might be better to extend the invasion connection definition to exclude wars since 1914 as they already have their own Connection?)
Damaged in WWII - http://www.worldheritagesite.org/tags/tag.php?id=110
Damaged in WWI - http://www.worldheritagesite.org/tags/tag.php?id=669

We try not to have connections which too closely duplicate each other which "Bombed by US airforce" would do with the above 3 (obviously no airforce before WWI!) so, better to use them instead? My "Bombarded by British Navy" was always going to refer largely to pre WWI events and doesn't put any emphasis on whether "damaged" or not. The "Connection" is really more about British Navy activity around the world in often the most "unlikely" places (E.g Solovetsky Islands and Suomenlinna!!) than to any damage which might have occurred to the WHS

These decisions are "judgement calls" - the issue is whether the Connection brings something "new" to the party

Author Colvin
Partaker
#13 | Posted: 28 Aug 2016 23:47 | Edited by: Colvin 
Solivagant:
My "Bombarded by British Navy" was always going to refer largely to pre WWI events and doesn't put any emphasis on whether "damaged" or not.

I like your idea about putting any bombardment damage from WWI or beyond in the other categories. If you intended for "Bombarded by British Navy" to be solely pre-WWI events, should there be a note under that connection delineating the time restriction?

As for the Damaged in WWII connection, I think you could make a pretty good case for the following mixed site:

Papahânaumokuâkea -- damaged by Japanese and US forces during the Battle of Midway in June 1942. link

Also, I found this candidate for WWII damage when researching last night, but I don't have specifics for whether the bombing damage was within the inscribed area of the WHS or not:

Rhodes -- German-occupied medieval city bombed by British in 1944. link

Author pikkle
Partaker
#14 | Posted: 29 Aug 2016 23:19 | Edited by: pikkle 
Any of les chemins de Santiago de Compostela that Paul Abadie "restored." - oops... since WWII, I was thinking "other than" and when you've been holding a grudge since the 1850s...well.

Author elsslots
Admin
#15 | Posted: 2 Sep 2016 10:50 
Colvin:
should there be a note under that connection delineating the time restriction?

Done.

Plus added your two suggestions for Damaged in WWII

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