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Out or in doubt!

Author elsslots
#1 | Posted: 9 May 2008 01:06 
The proposed connections below I've marked 'OUT' or 'IN DOUBT' which means I will not add them to the website right now because I think they do not meet the criteria. Of course you can get them back IN if I've misunderstood your hidden meaning, or if you provide satisfying arguments or if somebody else comes to your rescue when he thinks the connection is a good idea.

1. Canterbury can be added to the London hotspot.
OUT: it's either Canterbury or Stonehenge/Bath all won't fit within a 250 km radius

2. Canterbury, Devon & Dorset coastline, Belfries [Calais & Dunkerque])
OUT: I don't really understand what is meant, please clarify (and there have to be 4 for a hotspot)

3. Famous architects: Acropolis Phideas, Vatican Bernini, Vicenza Palladio, Milan: Last Supper Bramante, Gaudi etc.
OUT: not specific enough, Palladio already has its own connection and so can have other architects (if they have 4 buildings in inscribed areas)

4. Scotland: New Lanark, Orkney, Edinborough, St Klida
OUT: this isn't a hotspot (the islands are too far for that), and I think it's a too obvious connection for pointing out a region

5. Volcanoes: Aeolian Islands, Pompeii, Jeju, Kamchatka, Dominica
OUT: we already have a volcanic category & a connection covered by volcanic ash

6. ARMENIAN ARCHITECTURAL STYLE: Haghpat and Sanahin - Echmiatsin and Zvarnots Geghard
OUT: too obvious (it's a subdivision of a category & spans only sites in one country) (still a little in doubt though as there are Armenian monuments in other countries that could become a WHS)

7. Frescoes / murals by famous painters: Florence
OUT: this is too generic, especially for this connection specify which fresco or building, which painter

8. Tunisia and Low countries Hotspots
Both Tunisia and the Low Countries (Netherlands, Belgium and surroundings) have loads of WHS within a small area (small enough to meet the criteria).
DOUBT: they are not regions but countries, and the high density is 'just' a result of their being ultra-small countries; as this hotspot connection originated from its practicality for travel purposes, these should be IN

Author Solivagant
#2 | Posted: 9 May 2008 03:08 | Edited by: Solivagant 
London to Canterbury = 54miles (87kms)
London to Stonehenge = 87 miles (136kms)
So they both fit in even if considered within a 250kms "diameter" circle around London (if cented a bit to the West of the city!) - but the rule only states a 250kms "Radius" (ie a circle with a diameter of twice that distance)

I guess the Belfries/Canterbury and Coast Line were proposed on the basis of a circle centred somewhere in the Channel (or Manche?) - though I haven't worked out such a circle for myself.
This sort of definition clearly opens up all sorts of impractical options and I think it may be necessary to add to the approx size rule an additional one which requires practicality of easy travel to and from the centre of the "Hot Spot Circle" which should be a centre of communication (and should be mentioned? eg What would it be for Saxony Anhalt?). You could reduce it to a 200km Radius and/or look for practicality of a return journey to any site in the hotspot from the centre in a day by public transport or rentacar? This latter would have some impact on existing hotspots such as Delhi/Agra

Tunisia + Low Countries - there are many "ultra small countries" with few or zero WHS so that status doesn't automatically lead to lots of sites. I personally see this "connection" is primarily about closeness for travel rather than shared history/culture. However almost inevitably sites which are close to each other will share a common history whether they are in the same country or not - whether as part of the same country within some earlier set of borders or as part of a region in conflict! So I would allow these 2.

Others - Agree with Els

Author Assif
#3 | Posted: 9 May 2008 03:58 
1) I would like to protect my proposal for famous architects. It is similar in character to the one about famous painters and certainly adds to our understanding of the sites. There aren't enough such artists who have 3 or more whs and yet I suppose we can learn about the history of architecture through such a connection of architects who only have one site on the list. Palladio indeed has his own category, but it is not dedicated to his work solely but to others who imitated his style as well.
Maybe this proposal can be rescued if we stress what exactly the intended monuments are (if they are not the entire site already).
I don't remember my list exactly but I try:
Last Supper - Bramante
Acropolis - Phydeas
Tugendhat - Van der Mies
Palau de la Musica and San Pau
Vatican - San Petro, Bernini
Rome - Musei Capitolini, Michaelangelo
Vicenza - Villa Rotonda and other, Palladio
Wuerzburg - Balthasar Neumann

These are all important architects in the development of Western art. I don't remember if I suggested others as well, but I think these do earn a connection.

2) As to volcanoes:

Pompeii is indeed included in the category of 'covered by vocanic ashes'. However, I couldn't find any category for natural sites depicting volcanic activity:

Macdonald island, Dominica, Kamchtaka, Jeju, Aeolean Islands

I think they deserve their own connection

3) I would also like to propose Nimes to the Provence hotspot. It is not in the modern region of Provence, but is culturally and geographically very near.

Author Assif
#4 | Posted: 9 May 2008 05:36 
I forgot Vienna - Otto Wagner (Postsparkasse and Secession) and Loos (Loos House and American Bar)

Author Assif
#5 | Posted: 9 May 2008 06:10 
Ok - I missed on the volcanic category. I remove my suggestion for that.
I am also posting my suggestion for architects as a seperate topic.

Author meltwaterfalls
#6 | Posted: 9 May 2008 11:00 
1) Ah I think it may have been me that has caused the confusion with the 'Canterbury' Hotspot they were actually intended as part of the London Hotspot by taking the 200km radius from London; Canterbury, Belfries and Dorset Coastline would all fall with in the 200km radius. I think that may have been to do with the way I edited the initial propossal. The core of the Hotspot would be the 4 in London and then I was illustrateing that these other sites all fell within the 200km, my fault for not being clear.

2) In terms of the lowcountries hotspot, I understand the fact that they are close together as they are in small countries, I just thought It was interesting to see the absolutly huge amount of sites in this corner of Europe. I think if you take the 200km radius (400km diametre) from roughly La Grande Place/ Groot Mark in Brussels you could include 25 sites in 5 different countries. So perhaps it is not what was envisaged when the Hotspot was started but I think it maybe interesting to illustrate this cluster of sites in a small amount of space, and I am pretty sure this is the densest cluster in the world.

3) Nimes isn't on the World Heritage List, though I think it is part of a tentative list site of the Antique Towns of Narbonne.

4) The architects idea seems reasonable but it may be tough defining 'famous'. If it gets posted elsewhere I will add some suggestions.

Author Assif
#7 | Posted: 9 May 2008 16:01 
I agree as to defining 'famous' but the same applies to the connection 'famous painters' and this is already on.

Author Assif
#8 | Posted: 10 May 2008 05:17 
There are Armenian architectural monuments in countries other than Armenia and at least two are on the whs list: the Armenian churches in Lviv and in Old Jerusalem.

Author elsslots
#9 | Posted: 11 May 2008 04:48 
I've rephrased the WHS hotspot definition to:

"Areas with a cluster of at least 4 WHS within a circle with a diameter of 215km (per Unesco website maps) OR within daytrip range from a centre within the area."

- I removed the 'regional', so Tunisia, NL, Belgium will count also
- I've changed the 250km radius to a circle with a 215km diameter (which I meant in the first place, but I'm not good at maths)
- And added an escape for the well-infrastructured countries where it's possible to travel larger distances during a daytrip (f.e. Brussels or London)

Author Solivagant
#10 | Posted: 11 May 2008 05:17 | Edited by: Solivagant 
You are getting there - but there are still the odd "logical issues"! For instance - Where is the "centre" of the circle which is to be used? The UNESCO 215kms is always centred on a site rather than on the "optimal" centre!
Mathura for instance is 147 kms from Delhi and 58 from Agra - so, remarkably, if you used that as the "central point" for your day trips you could get to both within 215kms(UNESCO "straight line" v road distances is another logical issue)!!! In more practical terms however I don't think that the Agra/Delhi hot spot is maintainable on your new rules - Indian transport infrastructure doesn't really support long distance return day travel!
There should be a hot spot around Lebanon/Syria - the UNESCO map lists 9 (!!!) sites withinthe 215 kms centred on Damascus - 3 in Syria and 5 in Lebanon. If you took Anjar in Lebanon as the centre you might even get 10 - but we won't go down that road!

Author m_m
#11 | Posted: 17 Jan 2009 21:01 
hi els. can you also include the mahabodhi temple complex in the brick architecture connection? this was used to justify its qualification under criteria ii and iv. thanks!

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