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Out or in doubt #28

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Author Assif
#31 | Posted: 15 Jul 2015 16:50 
a. Agadez - Crit iv "From the 15th century, Agadez, "the gateway to the desert", became an exceptional crossroads for the caravan trade."
b. Ancient Ksour - Crit iii "The Ksour bear unique witness to a nomadic culture and trade in a desert environment. "
c. Meroe - Crit v "The major centres of human activity far from the Nile at Musawwarat and Naqa raise questions as to their viability in what is today an arid zone devoid of permanent human settlement. They offer the possibility, through a detailed study of the palaeoclimate, flora, and fauna, of understanding the interaction of the Kushites with their desert hinterland."
d. Timbuktu - Crit v "he three mosques and mausoleums are outstanding witnesses to the urban establishment of Timbuktu, its important role of commercial, spiritual and cultural centre on the southern trans-Saharan trading route, and its traditional characteristic construction techniques."

Author Solivagant
#32 | Posted: 2 Aug 2015 03:48 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Oldest Continuously Inhabited Cities -
A worthwhile Connection but surely the inscribed site needs to be within that area of the city which has been "continuously inhabited" since the given date and not some distance outside!!
Gelati Monastery - is actually some distance outside Kutaisi
Imperial Tombs - Ok, the Ming tombs are within the boundary of a suburban district of modern Beijing but are some distance from the ancient city "The first walled city in Beijing was Ji, a city-state from the 11th to 7th century BC. Within modern Beijing, Ji was located south of the present Beijing West Railway Station" (Wiki)
Summer Palace -as for the Imperial Tombs
Longmen Grottoes - " In the 1136 BC a settlement named Chengzhou (成周) was constructed by the Duke of Zhou for the remnants of the captured Shang nobility. The Duke also moved the Nine Tripod Cauldrons to Chengzhou from the Zhou Dynasty capital at Haojing. A second Western Zhou capital, Wangcheng (also: Luoyi) was built 15 km (9.3 mi) west of Chengzhou. Wangcheng became the capital of the Eastern Zhou Dynasty in 771 BC. The Eastern Zhou Dynasty capital was moved to Chengzhou in 510 BC. Later, the Eastern Han Dynasty capital of Luoyang would be built over Chengzhou. Modern Luoyang is built over the ruins of Wangcheng, which are still visible today at Wangcheng Park" (Wiki). Longmen Grottoes are around 10kms outside Luoyang and nowhere near Wangcheng Park.
Susa - Is not Susa "adjacent" to the town of Shush (pop c 54k) rather than a "part" of or surrounded by it? And, in any case, do we know that it has been "continuously inhabited"
Monasteries of ... Nea Moni of Chios. This 11th C Byzantine Monastery is situated in the hills in the centre of Chios some distance from the town of Chios ("Originally the site of an ancient settlement, the town was first built at the north side of a natural harbour." -Wiki) which is presumably the "continuously inhabited city" of the island.
Mausoleum of First Qin Emperor - not a part of the continuously inhabited city of Xian
Belem. Is situated some 6kms west of the old parts of Lisbon and only became significant after the establishment of the monastery. If the T List site of Baixa were inscribed then that would be ok for this Connection! See Wiki - "Archaeological findings suggest there were Phoenician influences dating back to 1200 BC, leading some historians to believe that a Phoenician trading post might have occupied the centre of the present city (on the southern slope of the Castle hill)"

Author elsslots
#33 | Posted: 10 Aug 2015 13:18 
Royal Saltworks of Arc-et-Senans :
Canals / Irrigation and drainage
Saumoduc de Salins-les-Bains à Arc-et-Senans

>> in English this is described as a 'brine pipeline', I would not consider it a canal nor do I see a link to irrigation/drainage (it's more of an Industrial pipeline as far as I understand)

Author Solivagant
#34 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 13:50 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Disputed border - Ems Dollart
I had been aware of this "threat" to European unity some time ago but decided not to put it forward for this connection as the boundaries drawn for the Wadden Sea WHS by both NL and Germany carefully avoid the disputed area!!!! By all means leave it in as a curiosity but perhaps make it clear that the inscribed boundaries are so drawn!
Disputed area
the inscribed area

Author elsslots
#35 | Posted: 19 Aug 2015 11:01 
I need some help with these 2, that have been suggested for "Seasonal WHS":
(WHS which need to be visited at a particular time of year either because the main stated OUV can only be seen/experienced at certain times or because climatic conditions/conservation requirements require the entire inscribed area to be closed at certain periods.)

1. Victoria Falls - "largest curtain of falling water in the world" > I gather that the water level is the highest from Feb - May, but are the other months so much drier that the OUV cannot be experienced anymore?
2. Western Ghats - "plant and animal diversity" > is this diversity so dependent on the monsoon season that nothing of the OUV can be seen outside those months?

Maybe someone who has visited either one outside of the best months can elaborate on this..

Author kkanekahn
#36 | Posted: 19 Aug 2015 18:26 | Edited by: kkanekahn 
I don't think Western Ghats will come under Seasonal world heritage sites. It has outstanding biodiversity (fauna) even outside monsoon season. Forest are more thicker and there are some seasonal plants , but still it has better biodiversity compared to many other WHS. It is included in biodiversity hotspot. OUV in terms of criteria(ix) does not change in terms of season.

Author Solivagant
#37 | Posted: 20 Aug 2015 01:05 
We have visited Vic Falls twice in August - the photo with my review taken from a helicopter ride shows what they were like - still pretty "misty" when one walked the path on the Zimbabwean side

Author Durian
#38 | Posted: 26 Oct 2015 20:18 
ASEAN Heritage Parks

After checking with ASEAN CHM website, I found that actually all Vietnamese sites in the connection, Halong Bay, Hoi An, My Son, Thang Long, Phong Nha - Kebang, Puerto Princesa of Philippines and Indonesian 2 sites, Ujung Kulon and Komodo Island are not ASEAN Heritage Park.

Author elsslots
#39 | Posted: 27 Oct 2015 02:21 
are not ASEAN Heritage Park.

I wonder how they ended up there (I've removed them now)

Author Durian
#40 | Posted: 27 Oct 2015 19:51 
I've removed them now

Dear Els, another one, Hue.

Author elsslots
#41 | Posted: 17 Dec 2015 13:53 
The new connection "Viewable from another WHS" attracts some traffic:
( )

- I think that from Parc de la Butte Saint-Nicaise (St Nicase Hill) you may see at least Basilique of St Remi (or its towers ...)
>> anybody sure about this?

- you can see Beemster Polder Heritage Area from many forts of Stelling van Amsterdam - I guess that these are: Fort north of Purmerend (Beemster), Fort along Nekkerweg (Beemster), Fort along Middenweg (Beemster). Fort along Jisperweg (Beemster), Fort near Spijkerboor (Beemster).
>> this is a case of 'Exact locations inscribed twice (or more)' (we should exclude those from the "viewable" connection)

From the top of belfry in Tournai you can see the Cathedral of Notre-Dame (another WHS), the same you can encounter in Brugge (Belfry and Beguinage) - from these single buildings you can see the old town of Brugge ....
>> OK I guess?

Also both parts of Iguacu / Iguazu National Parks are visible each from another as they border by the river ....
>> this is a contiguous site, these are out (see description of the connection)

Author Solivagant
#42 | Posted: 17 Dec 2015 14:17 | Edited by: Solivagant 
The new connection "Viewable from another WHS" attracts some traffic

Perhaps I should have "required" a photo on this site or a link which "proves" it. Most of my original suggestions did this and the others were pretty indisputable. It doesn't seem unreasonable to require such "proof" in difficult cases even if not in both directions photos which give a good idea of closeness and general sight line from which a good judgement can be made about the likelihood of a view being possible should be possible?

Regarding Brugge and the Belfries/Beguinages there - don't the "rules" cover this? They share the same location don't they?

Regarding Tournai Cathedral and the Tournai Belfry. This photo would seem perfectly adequate to "prove" that the Cathedral can be seen from the top of the Belfry (stairs are available up it for tourists as I understand it) - I don't know if there is anywhere in the Cathedral where one can go to see the Belfry?

Regarding St Remy and the Nicaise Champagne inscriptions. I have just looked very closely at the maps for each. At the NW corner of the Nicaise nomination the inscribed area is possibly even contiguous with that for St Remy - BUT, probably there is the width of the Rue du Grand Cerf between them!! I had not realised how far into the built up area of Rheims the Champagne inscription ventures! Interesting also that the voerground and underground areas have different shapes -albeit that all are within the Buffer Zone

However - In both this case AND that of Tournai Cathedral and Tournai Belfry the "Zone Tampon" (Buffer Zones) overlap - ie St Remy Cathedral is INSIDE the Buffer zone of the Champagne inscription!! To all intents and purposes they are contiguous but our rules as currently defined don't specify "contiguity" as including a shared buffer zone!
A "purpose" of this "Connection" is to identify sites which are very close (I.e close enough to be seen without actually overlapping or joining). It seems to have achieved its purpose in this case. My inclination is not to extend the rules to prevent sites sharing a buffer zone from having this Connection!! There won't be that many.

Author Solivagant
#43 | Posted: 3 Jan 2016 12:19 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Was about to propose a new "Connection" for the Ottoman court architect Mimar Sinan (1490-1588) when I discovered/remembered that he was already included in the Connection for "Designed by Famous Architects" where he is connected with 4 WHS - Damascus, Istanbul, Mostar and the Selimiye Mosque (Edirne).

In fact the Damascus Connection for "Al Takiya Al Suleimaniya" is incorrect as this complex is outside the inscribed boundaries of "The Ancient city of Damascus". It is located almost 1km west of the "Old City" close to the National and Army Museums and, as this article states, near the Barada River -

On the other hand there should be a connection for Aleppo. One of Sinan's early works was the Khusruwiyah Mosque there. It is situated just SW of the citadel - well within the inscribed area. See
Or rather it WAS so situated - apparently it was largely destroyed in 2013!!! Presumably, one day, it will be restored, but I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to how many years away that might be!

Another "error" is that somehow Sinan has been credited in the Istanbul Connection with the "Oratory at the Western Wall" - that should of course be Jerusalem. But, although this "fact" is repeated many times on the Web, I can't discover if this structure till exists (I suspect that it doesn't. It would be interesting to know and also, if it has "gone", when did it "go" and in what circumstances. Assif???). This, quite detailed article on the History of the Wall across the Ottoman period makes just that one early reference -

However, as well as his main work in Istanbul which is within the inscribed boundary (The Suleymaniye mosque), he, apparently, also designed changes to the Hagia Sofia - "During the reign of Selim II (1566–1574), the building started showing signs of fatigue and was extensively strengthened with the addition of structural supports to its exterior by the great Ottoman architect Mimar Sinan, who is also considered one of the world's first earthquake engineers. In addition to strengthening the historic Byzantine structure, Sinan built the two additional large minarets at the western end of the building, the original sultan's lodge, and the Türbe (mausoleum) of Selim II to the southeast of the building in 1576-7 / AH 984."

I still feel that Sinan justifies his own connection under Individuals - we have done so for other (Western!) architects!!!

Author Assif
#44 | Posted: 4 Jan 2016 12:16 
I can't discover if this structure till exists (I suspect that it doesn't. It would be interesting to know and also, if it has "gone", when did it "go" and in what circumstances. Assif???

I could find out two works in Jerusalem are attributed to Sinan:

1) Damascus Gate, which was built atop a Roman gate that is still visible:

2) The oratory is probably a misinterpretation. What Sinan did at the Western Wall was digging deep, exposing the earlier floor in front of the wall as well as constructing a small wall separating the Mughrabi Quarter from the wall. This created the oratory, which was an open space in front of the wall for the Jews to pray at. With the demolition of the Mughrabi Quarter in 1967 this space was gone.

Author Solivagant
#45 | Posted: 4 Jan 2016 15:15 
oratory is probably a misinterpretation

Thanks for the reply and research.
Yes an "oratory" normally means a small chapel but in this case could mean a space where worshippers could "Orate".

The Damascus Gate is a great find - so that is a 5th "Connection" for Sinan!

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 Out or in doubt #28

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