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Out or in doubt #28

 
 
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Author elsslots
Admin
#1 | Posted: 5 Jul 2015 01:47 | Edited by: elsslots 
Some rejections & doubts for the 2015 WHS:
Blue and John Crow Mountains - Named after individual people
>> John Crow comes from the Jamaican name for the turkey vulture (according to wiki)

Great Burkhan Khaldun - Derived from more than 1 TWHS
>> its history is messy, but the 1 location that is now inscribed is (I believe) a reduction of the TWHS Sacred Mountains of Mongolia

Author Assif
Partaker
#2 | Posted: 5 Jul 2015 14:47 
elsslots:
Great Burkhan Khaldun - Derived from more than 1 TWHS
>> its history is messy, but the 1 location that is now inscribed is (I believe) a reduction of the TWHS Sacred Mountains of Mongolia

Then it should fit the connection "reduced from a larger TWHS".

Author Assif
Partaker
#3 | Posted: 5 Jul 2015 14:49 
We have got SACRED BINDER MOUNTAIN AND ITS ASSOCIATED CULTURAL HERITAGE SITES as a candidate for 2015. Is this a mistake?

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#4 | Posted: 5 Jul 2015 15:47 
Diyarbakir
I am not sure about the "Multi lingual inscriptions". As I understand it the ones referred to are completely separate unconnected inscriptions, albiet in different languages (?????) - surely this Connection has always been used (and was intended to be used) for single monuments/pillars/stones etc inscribed with different languages for the SAME text. There is nothing particularly special is there about having inscriptions from different periods in different languages.

Diyabakir should also be connected to Sites with an enclave - rather strangely, the inscribed site (as well as having a large area of "garden") follows the city walls and fort in a circle but does NOT include the old town within them

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#5 | Posted: 6 Jul 2015 04:10 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Regarding Diyarbakir as above - I fear that a lot more of the Connections established for this site are invalid as they refer to locations situated within the walls in the "old town" which is only in the Buffer zone
Glazed tiles
Monumental fountains
Notable Minarets
Armenian Orthodox
Islamic Pilgrimage Sites
Syriac Churches

I have checked on the AB map and Google Maps and none of the Churches/Mosques named are situated on the walls or within the Citadel but are all inside the walls by some distance.(The general "Mosques" Connection seems to be ok however because of mosques in the Citadel - but do we list every mosque or only significant ones - we dont list every church!)

Author elsslots
Admin
#6 | Posted: 6 Jul 2015 07:04 
Assif:
We have got SACRED BINDER MOUNTAIN AND ITS ASSOCIATED CULTURAL HERITAGE SITES as a candidate for 2015. Is this a mistake?

No, not at the time of nomination. It still is part of the nomination doc. But during the past months ICOMOS has talked Mongolia down to include only 1 sacred mountain.

Author elsslots
Admin
#7 | Posted: 6 Jul 2015 07:06 
Solivagant:
Regarding Diyarbakir as above - I fear that a lot more of the Connections established for this site are invalid as they refer to locations situated within the walls in the "old town" which is only in the Buffer zone

Are you sure the Old Town is in the Buffer zone?
I used this map: http://www.planetware.com/i/map/TR/diyarbakir-map.jpg
I believed only the new town was excluded

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#8 | Posted: 6 Jul 2015 07:49 
elsslots:
Are you sure the Old Town is in the Buffer zone?

Absolutely - I was told this by the Turkish World heritage lady we met in Bergama last May so I was looking for it in the AB and indeed it is confirmed in the map of the AB evaluation.
See http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2015/whc15-39com-inf8B1-en.pdf Print page 283, PDF page 409
Look at Buffer zone "BZ" being the Old Town, completely surrounded by Nominated Property "NP" in purple being the walls and citadel!!
Could I have misunderstood it???

Author elsslots
Admin
#9 | Posted: 6 Jul 2015 08:44 
Looking again at Google Maps, I think you are right. The core zone is the "empty land" within the bend of the river. The more built-up area is the old town.

Author elsslots
Admin
#10 | Posted: 6 Jul 2015 08:45 
But also: the whole City wall is included

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#11 | Posted: 6 Jul 2015 08:58 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
The core zone is the "empty land" within the bend of the river. The more built-up area is the old town.

Yes the core zone is the "empty land" which constitutes the "Gardens down to the river" together with e.g the bridge PLUS the circle of Walls and the Fortress
NB also these quotes from the AB review
"The Buffer Zone is also affected by some factors. The old city (Suriçi) is affected by population pressures, urban sprawl and new development (including some unauthorized developments). There are approximately 1500 buildings which have more than 2 storeys in Suriçi. "
and
"The first buffer zone contains the historic city of Diyarbakır Suriçi District with many historical buildings – including 125 monuments and 382 houses with heritage value. It contributes to the visual integrity of the nominated property and is therefore vulnerable to pressures of
inappropriate development. "


Regarding valid "Connections" - I can't remember the prcise titles but something "Water managment" related is relevant -
"The Anzele Spring is located in the west part of the City Walls. It provides for the water needs of many mosques in the city, houses and gardens to the Urfa Gate, powers the mills outside of Mardin Gate, and irrigates the Hevsel Gardens". I haven't yet been able to establish the purpose of the "Mills"

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#12 | Posted: 6 Jul 2015 09:07 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
But also: the whole City wall is included

As I said
"completely surrounded by Nominated Property "NP" in purple being the walls and citadel!!"
which is why it justifies the "enclave" connection
It really is very strange - but I guess thatTurkey obviously recognised that it couldn't get the old town inscribed so settled on the Walls/Fort and gardens -though what is so special about the gardens I can't really identify - and the list already has a fair number of city walls - albeit not as many as there are vineyards.
PS - I have just checked Turkey's 1984 T Liist and note that Diyarbakir was on it SOLELY for its 12C City Walls -no mention of the Old town or of the Hevsle Gardens

Another connection
Silk
" In the Ottoman Period the Hevsel Gardens were covered entirely in Mulberry trees" (Diyarbakir Province is still a producer of silk0

Also I think a Gertrude Bell connection - http://www.todayszaman.com/life_turkey-through-a-travelers-eyes-from-cizre-to-diyarba kir-with-gertrude-bell-in-1909_304798.html (She is "in the news" at the moment as "Queen of the Desert"!!). For her photos - http://gertrudebell.ncl.ac.uk/photos_in_album.php?album_id=14&start=30

Author jonathanfr
Partaker
#13 | Posted: 7 Jul 2015 09:25 
Looking to link "Humberstone and Santa Laura Saltpeter Works" and Chilehaus, perhaps through a connection "Saltpeter". I think this feature, the word "Chile" in a location in Germany, must appear somewhere in a connection. Suggestions?

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#14 | Posted: 7 Jul 2015 10:02 | Edited by: Solivagant 
jonathanfr:
perhaps through a connection "Saltpeter".

Well, i didn't give myself much hope when i started looking for this - but it is amazing what one can find with a bit of Googling.
So proposal for a new connection

Saltpeter
Humberstone and Lara Saltpeter works
Chilehaus. Built for Henry Brarens Sloman (1848-1931). He made his fortune in Chile in Saltpeter mining. On returning to Hamburg he commissioned the "Chilehaus" naming it after the source of his wealth
Mammoth Cave . "Saltpetre deposits were discovered on the cave walls and this valuable nitrate was removed and sent to be processed in gunpowder factories between 1809 and 1819." (AB eval)

The following could be included - but the "Saltpeter" is of course synthetic - albeit for the same purpose as the "real thing"! The AB does however comment in its Comparative analysis "Santa Laura Saltpeter Works, Chile (2005, (ii), (iii) & (iv)) is similar in responding to the world-wide demand for fertilizer but not in terms of the combination of hydroelectricity and electro-chemical processes." So the connection with "real" salpeter could be that it was built to replace it with a synthetic product?

Rjukan/Notodden "Rjukan was formerly a significant industrial centre in Telemark, and the town was established between 1905 and 1916, when Norsk Hydro started saltpetre (fertilizer) production there. Rjukan was chosen because Rjukanfossen, a 104-metre waterfall, provided easy means of generating large quantities of electricity" (wiki)

Author jonathanfr
Partaker
#15 | Posted: 7 Jul 2015 11:39 
Good research Solivagant.

Furthermore, the "desert" is not reflected in a connection or a category for cultural sites like Maymand or Rock Art in the Hail Region. How could we develop this essential feature of these places?

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 Out or in doubt #28

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