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Out or in doubt #27

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Author meltwaterfalls
#16 | Posted: 23 Sep 2014 07:10 
I must admit these biodiversity areas are new to me.
Thanks for that link Assif, is it working for anyone else? It brings up errors when I try. It looks like a useful resource so I would be keen to have a bit of a delve into it.

Author Solivagant
#17 | Posted: 23 Sep 2014 07:39 | Edited by: Solivagant 
is it working for anyone else?

Yes - it asks for a wait whilst the browser starts up and then it seems ok - at least under Waterfox -I haven't tried any other browser.

By the way PLIVICE LAKES Lakes seems OUTSIDE the Mediterranean Hotspot area as shown by this map - only the islands, littoral and most of the southern "panhandle" of Croatia are included. Zooming in does show the Plitvice NP marked on the map as being outside (It has a facility to do a query as well and "Plitvice" returns as outside)

And MALPELO ISLAND is INSIDE the Tumbes-Choco-Magdalena Hotspot (see the CEPF map which specifically marks it)

And LOS KATIOS and DARIEN Parks are both INSIDE the Tumbes-Choco-Magdalena Hotspot rather than the Meso-America one. Because these are contiguous hotspot areas it can be a bit difficult to establish the exact boundary given that both are shown in Red on the databasin map but it is clear that Tumbes etc one extends up into Panama. The CEPF map is a bit clearer and shows that the boundary skirts the Golfo de San Miguel and the Ensenada
de Garachiné - the UNESCO map for Darien shows it to be south of these 2 locations. Wiki defines Tumbes-Choco-Magdalena as including the "Choco-Darien moist forests" -which is presumably from where it got its name!

And SERENGETI is shown as being OUTSIDE the Eastern Afro-montane hotspot in both the CEPF and Databasin maps (Whilst nearby Ngorongoro is correctly allocated to that hotspot!)

and MTS KILIMANJARO and KENYA are INSIDE the Eastern Afro-Montane hotspot

Author meltwaterfalls
#18 | Posted: 23 Sep 2014 07:46 
Yes - it asks for a wait whilst the browser starts up and then it seems ok - at least under Waterfox -I haven't tried any other browser

I may have to give it a go from my laptop later, I can't get it to work on Chrome or IE, but good to know it works.

Author elsslots
#19 | Posted: 23 Sep 2014 13:28 
Works for me in Internet Explorer 11

Author Solivagant
#20 | Posted: 26 Sep 2014 02:45 | Edited by: Solivagant 
"Only portion of building inscribed"
Does anyone know if some of the "Belfries of Belgium and France" are inscribed as part of an integral building. Some are definitely stand alone structures but the lengthy Nomination file is unclear (to me at least!!) as to whether those which are part of a building are inscribed together with the rest of the structure or whether a "line" has been drawn through the building to separate out the tower? We need to define what "portion" means - just connected by a wall for instance would not seem, to me, to meet the requirement -the portion needs to be genuinely "integral" -ie "fully" connected structurally

It is interesting that only Spain to date has been identifed as operating this way in its nominations. The recent Corvey inscription by Germany, for instance, could justifiably have only nominated the authentic Carolinian remains rather than the rather ordinary later stuff -I guess they justify inscribing the entire area since it contains remains of the original "civitas" even if underground.

Author meltwaterfalls
#21 | Posted: 26 Sep 2014 05:23 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
Belfries of Belgium and France

Dare we wade into the wonderful world of Belgian language politics?
My French isn't nuanced enough, however the title of those in Wallonia and France seems to suggest it is only the belfries of the Town Halls and churches that are inscribed, where as the Dutch seems to suggest it is the whole building in Flanders.

e.g. Beffroi de l'Hôtel de Ville de Charleroi, Beffroi de l'Hôtel de Ville de Lille, Beffroi de l'église St-Eloi de Dunkerque as opposed to Stadhuis met Toren Sint-Truiden, Onze-Lieve-Vrouwekathedraal, Antwerpen. Interestingly the Flemish site that has it bilingual has it as Belfort en Schepenhuis / Beffroi et maison échevinale, Aalst.

So am I correct in that being: French and Walloon sites being The Belfry of the Town Hall, thus just the Belfry inscribed, but the Flemish ones as being Town Hall with Belfry, thus the whole building.

Author hubert
#22 | Posted: 26 Sep 2014 06:35 
Dare we wade into the wonderful world of Belgian language politics?

I also just thought about these linguistic nuances, much room for interpretation. And there is also a completely undetermined Version: "Sint-Pieterskerk / Belfort" in Leuven.
But as there are no detailed maps of the inscribed properties, we cannot be sure whether only the belfries are inscribed or the entire buildings.

But the Ravenna WHS "Early Christian Monuments of Ravenna" would meet the criteria for the proposed connection. The Archiepiscopal Chapel is part of the former bishop's palace (now a museum). The map on the WHC website shows that only this part of the building is inscribed.

Author Solivagant
#23 | Posted: 26 Sep 2014 14:14 | Edited by: Solivagant 
So am I correct in that being: French and Walloon sites being The Belfry of the Town Hall, thus just the Belfry inscribed, but the Flemish ones as being Town Hall with Belfry, thus the whole building.

One way of determining this matter is by looking at the inscribed areas of the individual sites, doing a "reasonableness" check and assessing whether the area could be simply a tower or a larger building. To that end I have looked at a number of Flemish/Walloon Belfries (No French belfires have an area assigned to them) - some are standalone or almost -e.g the Belfry of Namur is a round tower -I have looked at Google street view and although it is attached on one side to another building this building is in no way part of it and couldn't be regarded as "integral".

The areas of the Walloon belfries are as follows -
Binche 0.00172Ha
Charleroi 0.007225 Ha
Mons 0.019881 Ha
Namur 0.014 Ha
Thuin 0.01 Ha
Tournai 0.01 Ha

By Comparison some Flemish locations are as follows
"Belfort met Lakenhal (Beffroi / Halle-aux-Draps) Ipres" 0.493 Ha
"Lo Stadhuis met Belfort" 0.086 Ha
Stadshal met Belfort Nieuwpoort, 0.04 Ha

i.e the inscribed areas of the Flanders Belfries inscribed areas are all considerably larger than those of Wallonia - which seems to confirm that they include "more" than just the Belfry. Thus -
a. That of Ypres at 4930 sq metres is equivalent to significant building of say 70m x 70m i.e the "Halle-aux-Draps"
b. The Lo inscription at .086Ha is 860 sq m or say 40m x 25 - obviously far larger than a belfry on its own - so the description "Stadhuis MET Belfort" again seems to be supported.
Photo here,_Belgium
c. The Nieuwpoort "Stadshal met Belfort" is .04Ha or 400 sq m ie 27 m by 15 m - possible as per the photo on Wiki,_Belgium

If we look at some of the Wallon belfries
a. The area of Binche Belfry (which is an integral part of Binche Town Hall) is given as .00172Ha i.e 17 sq metres - a square with sides of 4m x 4m approx which could be about right for a tower but is obviously considerably smaller than a complete town hall would be!! The only problem is that from the photos of the Town Hall the belfry only "starts" at Town Hall roof level so does the inscribed "tower" go down to ground level or does it start in mid-air?? Here is a photo of the Town Hall and Tower -,belfries-of-belgium-8 85.htm
b. The Namur inscription (which Google street view shows to be a stand alone belfry as described above) its ground area is given as .014Ha i.e 140 sq metres - almost 10 x as large as the Binche belfry. But this is a round tower and would indeed be the case if the Tower's diameter were just over 13 metres - which from street view it could well be.
c. Charleroi Belfry is a given as 0.007225 Ha i.e at 72 sq metres - this is around 4 x as big as that of Binche. So, it should be around 9 x 8 metres. The Belfry tower of Charleroi Town Hall could easily be of that size. Certainly 72 sq m is far too small for tower PLUS town Hall!! . This Web site states that the town hall has a circumference of 240m an area of 3600 sq m n/V/38520.html
d. The Tuin inscription has an area of .01Ha or 100 sq m ie 10m x 10m. Photos of the tower show it indeed to be a "chunky" structure which has had other structures added to it -what seems to be an arched market hall - which could NOT be part of the inscribed 100 sq m.

So - it appears that indeed
a. A number of the inscribed Belfries are inscribed with their integral "non-belfry" structures
b. Some of the Belfries are genuinely stand alone structures e.g Namur
c. Some of the Belfries are inscribed separately from the larger structures of which they are a part. E.g Binche, Namur and Tuin.

Author elsslots
#24 | Posted: 28 Sep 2014 06:16 | Edited by: elsslots 
High-biodiversity wilderness area:
North American deserts: Gulf of California, El Vizcaino, Carlsbad Caverns, Grand Canyon
>> these WHS aren't deserts

Miombo-Mopane: Victoria Falls
>> I think the area is more restricted to Savannah and woodlands

Author Solivagant
#25 | Posted: 28 Sep 2014 10:27 
North American deserts: Gulf of California, El Vizcaino, Carlsbad Caverns, Grand Canyon
>> these WHS aren't deserts

In fact, although being primarily Marine habitat inscriptions both Gulf of California and El Vizcaino contain areas of desert - presumably justified on the basis of the contribution to the overall ecosystem. Similarly the Caverns inscription isn't solely for the Caverns
a. Gulf of California - Criterion x text taken from UNESCO web site - "In addition the serial property includes a good sample of the Sonora desert ecosystems, considered one of the richest deserts in the world from the desert biodiversity point of view."
b. El Vizcaino - text also taken from the UNESCO Web site intro - "This exceptional sanctuary conserves both marine and terrestrial ecosystems and their delicate interface. The surrounding desert, biogeographically part of the Sonoran Desert, boasts highly diverse flora and fauna."
c. Carlsbad Caverns - the inscription is for the National Park which includes external desert areas as well as the caverns themselves. The UNESCO Web site text states "Above-ground vegetation communities range from desert to coniferous forest. Some 800 plant species have been identified, of which three are internationally threatened: Sneed pincushion cactus, Lee pincushion cactus and Lloyd's hedgehog cactus. The fauna inventory includes 64 mammals, 331 bird and 44 herpetofauna species."
d. Grand Canyon is certainly "desert" but i can't work out from the map whether it is definitely within the HBWA area -but it probably is? 4263

Author winterkjm
#26 | Posted: 28 Sep 2014 12:24 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Almost every island included in the Gulf of California is a desert ecosystem.

Grand Canyon - "The Park contains several major ecosystems. Its great biological diversity can be attributed to the presence of five of the seven life zones and three of the four desert types in North America. The five life zones represented are the Lower Sonoran, Upper Sonoran, Transition, Canadian, and Hudsonian. This is equivalent to traveling from Mexico to Canada." - National Park Service

Author hubert
#27 | Posted: 29 Sep 2014 16:09 
Library - Lorsch (The King's Hall may have served at a time to host the monastery's world famous library.)
>> can you provide a source and elaborate more on the value of the library, and is there still something left of it?

I just noticed this query that refers to the library of the Abbey of Lorsch. Indeed, there was an important library in Lorsch, it is considered as the most significant library of the Carolingian period. During the decline of the monastery in the 11th and 12th century, the library lost important works and in the 16th century the abbey and also the library was closed. Today, the inventory of the library is spread over more than 70 libraries worldwide. There is a project to virtually reconstruct the library.

The most famous item of the library is the "Lorsch Pharmacopoeia" (today in the Bamberg State Library) that has been inscribed in the "Unesco Memory of the World" in 2013.
Today, there are no traces of the library in the remains of the Lorsch Abbey. That the Torhalle was the former location of the library is only one of several hypothesis on the original purpose of the building - and it is a rather unlikely hypothesis.
I've not suggested this connection. But as the whole area of the Lorsch Abbey is included as a WHS and not only the Torhalle, I think that it would meet the criteria for the connection.

Author elsslots
#28 | Posted: 17 Oct 2014 01:23 
Major City Centres:
> though large cities, they all don't meet the requirement to have 1 mllion inhabitants in the core zone

Author elsslots
#29 | Posted: 22 Oct 2014 00:45 | Edited by: elsslots 
Out for "Single Monuments":

Würzburg Residence
Mir Castle
Agra Fort
Bahla Fort
Statue of Liberty
Chinese Wall
Blenheim Palace
Rhaetien Railway
Mausoleum Qin
Tomb of Askia
Villa Adriana Tivoli
Villa d'Este Tivoli
Queen's stepwell
Sun temple Konarak
Jantar Mantar
Rideau Canal
Canal du Midi
Van Nelle Factory
Völkinger Hütte
Diocletian Palace (Split)
Hospicio Cabanas
The Last Supper
El Escorial
Bazar Tabriz
El Jem
Angkor Wat
Thang Long
Preah Vihear
Sheikh Safi Khanegah

I've checked them all. Some are sites, other groups of buildings. Some are "undisclosed", so with early AB evaluations where the type of site is not mentioned. I've decided not to guess, except for those where the description is clear ("this monument...")

Author elsslots
#30 | Posted: 26 Oct 2014 01:44 
Lübeck - Cultural sites taking up an entire island
>> the core zone takes up "only" 2/3 of an Island (see official map)

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 Out or in doubt #27

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