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Out or In Doubt #17

 
Author elsslots
Admin
#1 | Posted: 25 Jul 2010 04:51 
A new bunch. When you have more info, please add it here in this post. Otherwise the connections will not be published.

(2968) Cemeteries
Stari Ras - the Church of St Peter was built over an Illyrian cemetery.
>> please name source, and is the cemetery still visible?

(2949) Minority communities
Lalibela - Copts
>> Ethiopian-Orthodox are also referred to as Copts here???

(2946) Big Waterfalls
Jungfrau – Truemmelbach
Wet Tropics of Queensland : Girringun National Park : Wallaman Falls
-Canadian Rocky Mountain Parks: Takakkaw Falls - Wapta Falls -Central Amazon Conservation Complex: Carabinani
Canadian Rocky Mountain Parks ("waterfalls" in the Brief Description) –
Jeju ("waterfalls" in the Brief Description) –
Jeju -Cheonjeyeon Waterfall -Cheonjiyeon Waterfall -Jeongbang Waterfall
Okapi Wildlife Reserve ("waterfalls" in the Brief Description) –
Pirin National Park ("waterfalls" in the Brief Description) –
Plitvice Lakes ("waterfalls" in the Brief Description) –
Pyrénées - Mount Perdu / Gavarnie Falls
>> I've limited the Big Waterfalls-connection to the Really Big ones. Otherwise it would be unlimited. "Waterfalls that are significantly Tall or handle a High Volume of water. Limited to those that belong to the Top 20 of either category on http://www.world-waterfalls.com/."

Rafting: -Glacier parks: Tatshenshini River -Grand Canyon -Tasmanian Wilderness -Victoria Falls
>> not specific enough for a connection, technically you could raft on any river

(2881) Pilgrimage route
Sacri monti, Italy, Banska Stiavnica's Calvary Mount, Slovak and Kalweria, Poland have pilgrimage trails connecting each buildings in the complex representing Jerusalem's via Dolorosa.
>> we already have these in their own Connection, "Calvaries"

(2867) Walled cities
Byblos
>> does not seem to remain much (80% or so is required)

Triumphal Arches
Granada - Puerta de la Justicia
>> is this a triumphal arch?

(2701) Ibn Battuta
Beijing
>> which WHS?

(2690) Holy Islamic site
Yasawi - pilgrimage to the Masoleum of Yasawi is equal to the traditional Haj to Mecca.
>> more a pilgrimage site, not top 5 holy islamic

Built or owned by Germans
Twyfelfontein - Als sich 1947 weiße Farmer in dem Tal niederließen, erwies sich die Quelle als nicht mehr zuverlässig, und sie nannten sie Twyfelfontein (hd: Zweifelfontäne). 1964 wurden die Farmerei wieder aufgegeben.
>> Germans were around, and as it was a German colony the whole country once was "owned" by Germans. But I cannot see a visible link to the German presence and this WHS (nothing "built")?

(2598) Neolithic age
Banska Stavnica
>> ??? source ??

Built elsewhere as a full size replica
Herrenchimsee Palace by Bavarian King Ludwig II was almost the exact copy of Versailles
>> more "modelled after" than a replica I think

Author Assif
Partaker
#2 | Posted: 25 Jul 2010 13:56 
Stari Ras - I cited the article in the new book by Unesco. I don't know if the remains can be visited but they are surely visible.

Lalibela - you're right about this, Els.

Puerta de la Justicia is a true gate in Alhambra, hence not a triumphal arch.

Banska Stavnica - Archaeological research has revealed that the site of
today's Banská Štiavnica was settled in prehistory and evidence of
many prehistoric cultures have been discovered, the oldest of which
date to the Stone Age.
http://www.jantarovacesta.sk/BS_EN.PDF

Author elsslots
Admin
#3 | Posted: 28 Jul 2010 13:12 
By the way, someone has resubmitted a number of possible connections - these 2 have already been added a long time ago!

(3001) Man-made Terraces
Vat Phou

(2997) Petroglyphs
Rio Platano - travel-to-honduras.com/photo/1769-97/Petroglyphs-are-found-along-th.htm

I am still looking into the others, I am not too sure about them without checking or without a source.

Author elsslots
Admin
#4 | Posted: 5 Aug 2010 12:28 
Some more recent ones:


(3085) Recently Active Volcanoes
Pitons, cirques and remparts of Reunion Island
>> Please name which volcano and when active

(3081) Locations for playing sport
Camino Real de Tierra Adentro
>> Please name what sport and where

(3079) Astrology and astronomy
Papahânaumokuâkea : "cosmological" in the description
>> more esoteric in definition than scientific I guess

(3076) Twin Towns
Historic Villages of Korea: Hahoe and Yangdong
>> they are not twin towns, they're not related or near each other

(3000) Cultural sites connected to Cliffs
Taishan
There are cliffs, but I wouldn´t say that the temples are built into them (more on top of the mountain)

(2999) Walled cities
Anbohinanga
>> not a city, but a village with a couple of residences

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#5 | Posted: 5 Aug 2010 12:50 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Reunion - Volcanoes
As far as I can make out the highly active volcano "Piton de la Fournaise" is within the boundaries of the Parc National de la Reunion. UNESCO states that the inscribed site "coincides with the core zone of La Réunion National Park"

Some details of the volcano's recent eruptions (including in 2010) and a map of its location on the east side of the island can be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piton_de_la_Fournaise

The NP Web site also has a map of the parc which seems to show (as one would expect, I guess), that the volcano is within the "coeur natural" of the parc
http://www.reunion-parcnational.fr/

Author elsslots
Admin
#6 | Posted: 8 Aug 2010 04:15 | Edited by: elsslots 
(3041) Cultural sites taking up an entire island
Kilwa and Snogo Mnara
>> I'm not sure that the whole islands are WHS (I think only the archaeological sites are)

(3004) Cave Temples/Churches
Longmen, Yungang, Mogao
>> They are included under Rock Cut Architecture: Structures carved in situ into "living rock" which are not primarily based on natural caves even though in India and China these are often referred to as being "caves".

(2719) Dubbed as another WHS
Mount Huang - In 2002, Mount Huang was named the "sister mountain" of Jungfrau in the Swiss Alps.
>> they have a partnership, but are not named after each other

(2789) Scripts
My Son - Scholars have found approximately 32 steles at Mỹ Sơn, dated between the 5th and the 12th century A.D. The People of Champa maintained written records in both Sanskrit and old Cham. They used scripts borrowed from India. Wiki
>> the inscriptions from this period have not survived?

(2616) Built or Owned by Chinese
Paris's I M Pei Glass Pyramid
>> he is a US citizen (was so when he designed it)

(2480) Rejected, and then inscribed
Wasn't the Sydney Opera House initially rejected?
>> I think it was withdrawn by AUS before being so

(2560) Monumental Monoliths
Hal Saflieni
>> carved out of the rock?

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#7 | Posted: 8 Aug 2010 16:09 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Re Kilwa and "Cultural sites taking up an entire Island".

A problem is that there are no properly established boundaries for either of the Kilwa sites. The WHC resolution in 2008 when the site was placed on the "In Danger" list required
" implementation of the above-mentioned corrective measures:
a) changes within two years:
i) delineate the boundaries for the two components of the property and their buffer zones to be submitted for consideration by the World Heritage Committee at its 35th session in 2011"

Well we shall see!

I have looked at my excellent little guide book to the site - published in 2005 (ISBN 9987 440 01 0 by Karen Moon). But it gives no real indication of even "possible boundaries". The 2 islands are quite large - certainly significantly larger than the area occupied by the main archaeological sites but there are other, as yet unexplored sites on both islands so it is possible that they could be justified in their entirety. On the other hand this could cause a lot of problems re restrictions on other activities etc so I would have expected there to be some areas outside the inscribed area on each island - albeit possibly still defined as a "buffer zone".

Kilwa has twice been on the WMF watch list -1996 and 2008. Its web site states "Kilwa Kisiwani is one of the most significant historic sites along the Swahili coast of East Africa. and was declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 1981, together with its sister island of Songo Mnara". This phraseology could be taken as implying that the entire islands are inscribed but I suspect that this would be too pedantic a reading!

One interesting aspect I noted in the guide book was the comment "Kilwa Kwinje is currently being considered for inclusion in the WHS". Kilwa Kwinje is a, still occupied but much diminished, town on the mainland around 30kms north of Kisiwani. It is said to be "a fascinating historic town of mostly 19C buildings". It was a centre for slave exports as late as the 1860s and became the German administrative centre for the area in the mid-1880s. It was also the location for the Maji-maji rebellion of 1905-7 which was put down by Germany with much loss of life.
All very interesting but it is unclear what on earth all this has with the OUV of Kilwa Kisiwani/Songo Mnara which relate to a very different cultural milieu!!! Yet, the same resolution which put Kilwa Kisiwani on the "In Danger" list quoted above also states that the WHC "Invites the State Party to consider an extension of the property to include Kilwa Kivinje and Sanje ya Kati and recommends that the State Party submit this extension with the delineation of the boundaries for examination by the World Heritage Committee at its 35th session in 2011"

Yet there is no "extension" for the Kilwa site on Tanzania's T List which would be a pre-requisite for such an extension - so what was the WHC doing "inviting" and "recommending" Tanzania to submit such an extension in 2011 (Sanje ya Kati is another island near Songo Mnara)??

Tanzania does however have on its T List a site titled "The Central Slave and Ivory Trade Route". This route goes between Bagamoyo on the Indian Ocean to Ujiji on Lake Tanganyika. But Bagamoyo is a long way north of Kilwa opposite Zanzibar and can have nothing to do with any extension of Kilwa - so this possibility remains a mystery.

But Bagamoyo in turn raises another mystery!
This site ( http://www.tanserve.com/towns/index_files/Bagamoyo.htm ) clearly states "Bagamoyo was recently designated as Tanzania's seventh world heritage site and is the oldest town in Tanzania" !! Now when did this happen?? In fact this is another example of excitement running ahead of reality -other web sites make it clear that Bagamoyo is hoping to become a WHS and that some work has commenced to achieve this. Details of the state of preservation and indeed of increasing destruction would seem to indicate that this event is a very long way off. See http://www.bagamoyo.com/360.html

Author elsslots
Admin
#8 | Posted: 15 Aug 2010 01:29 
Some more:

1. Natural sites rejected for cultural criteria
"Bikini Atoll" was proposed under cultural criteria when it was on the tentative list.
>> it's a cultural WHS
"Wadden Sea".
>> IUCN has discussed its cultural values and referred to ICOMOS, but I can't find evidence to suggest that the site was originally nominated as a mixed site. The nomination file also only is based on natural criteria

(3121) Triumphal Arches
Petra
>> name?

(3120) Hypogea
Petra
>> name?

(2879) Pacific Ocean
Iwami Ginzan >> Located at the Sea of Japan
Itsukushima, Japan >> located at an inland sea

(2751) Botanical Gardens
Fort and Shalamar Gardens -Garden Kingdom of Dessau-Wörlitz -Gardens and Castle at Kromeríz -Imperial Palace : Imperial Gardens
>> these are gardens/parks, but botanical? Please provide source

(2609) Minority communities
Fraser Island - Badtjala
>> do not live there anymore

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#9 | Posted: 15 Aug 2010 02:51 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Iwami Ginzan
But it is on the same sea as part of Central Shikote-Alin which has been "allowed" as "Pacific Ocean"!!
I have always thought that "Within 10kms of..." for the Oceanic/Maritime connections is too loose - the boundaries should in my view actually reach the sea or be culturally connected to it or be on a river port which is no further from the sea than (say) 20kms (and the definitions of the different connections in this category are not consistent either). But Iwami Ginzan includes port areas so it would meet that definition too ("Tomogaura (3-A), Okidomari (3-B) and Yunotsu (3-C), which played an important role as the ports for the outbound shipment of silver ore and silver from the Iwami Ginzan Silver Mine")

We had discussions very early on about the definition of an Ocean and whether it should follow the IHO definition which is to include bodies of water which debouch into one or other oceans.
http://www.worldheritagesite.org/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=5&topic=109

The problem would seem to be greatest with those seas which are very cut off from their "Ocean" e.g Mediterranean/Black Sea, Baltic and Hudson's Bay. But we seem to have been tougher on the Atlantic than the Pacific since even English Channel and North Sea locations are not included nor even the Caribbean!

Another possible approach would be to include sites based on the wider definition of "Ocean" unless there is a Connection for a sub unit. We have really already done this for e.g Baltic, Caribbean and S China

If this approach were adopted there would be enough sites for Connections of
Sea of Japan - taking Central Shikote out of Pacific and adding Seokguram Grotto whose cultural significance is that it faces the "East Sea" and the undersea tomb of King Munmu (but not acutally touching the coast

I am not so sure about the North Sea - IHO places its N extent at 60 degrees which excludes the Fjords but includes Bryggen. Wadden Sea makes 2. Then whether Edinburgh is included depends on the 10km rule - and Brugge??

As for the Inland Sea...????? Well strictly it is part of the Pacific Ocean

Author Assif
Partaker
#10 | Posted: 15 Aug 2010 05:52 
Petra Archaeological Museum is housed in an Edomite hypogeum.

Petra´s triumphal arch is now a ruin in the Roman street and can be seen in following link:
http://www.sant.ox.ac.uk/mec/mecaphotos-butt-jordan.html

The Badtjala were indeed relocated but they still exist and regard the island as their traditional territory.

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 Out or In Doubt #17

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