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Author kanfil
#76 | Posted: 22 Oct 2011 09:59 
For "Damaged in World War 1" there are just three connections, all in Belgium and the North of France!
Because it's a "world" war, I was wondering if there are no other WHsites over the world, damaged in World War 1.

Author Solivagant
#77 | Posted: 24 Oct 2011 04:19 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Hi Kanfil,
The nature of WWI was rather different from that of WWII - the Western front was pretty static and the identified sites cover this area. I have looked through the eastern campaigns in Poland/Russia, N Italy/Austria and Serbia/Romania/Macedonia and can find nothing as yet.
In the Middle East the Lawrence campaign involved Wadi Rum but I haven't found any reference to damage. There were battles in Judea but Allenby walked into Jerusalem and the old city didn't suffer any damage (??) - Perhaps Assif knows more? - Similarly for Turkey (Dardanelles), Iraq and Eastern Turkey/Armenia and campaigns in the various overseas German colonies - no WHS involved to the best of my knowledge.

Author evilweevil
#78 | Posted: 24 Oct 2011 06:02 
Heavy fighting took place in the Dolomites, and there are still traces of the fighting to be seen, but I'm not sure if this would be considered "damage" to a natural site (even though whole mountaintops were blown off...).

Author winterkjm
#79 | Posted: 11 Nov 2011 00:39 
Would this count?

Apparently the rear garden in Changdeokgung Palace is a IUCN IV protected area. Would this meet the requirements of the Cultural WHS set within an IUCN recognised protected area connection? Why I as ask is because the IUCN protected area in the garden is actually smaller than the Cultural boundaries of the site.


Author Solivagant
#80 | Posted: 11 Nov 2011 01:36 | Edited by: Solivagant 
The purpose of the Connection was to identify Cultural sites which also had "Natural" values to the extent of being within a protected Natural area as defined by IUCN. That way round seemed the more likely at the time but having such an area within the cultural boundaries covers the same general purpose!

On that basis I would have thought that Changdeokgung Palace should be included, however strange that its "garden" is so regarded!! I wonder what the basis was? The full definition of Cat IV ( v/ ) refers to "particular species" and "fragments of ecosystems" - what is the garden like?

The worry might be that this would open up a huge "hole" in the Connection such that many palace gardens etc would be included! I have checked a few and found that "Muskauer Parklandschaft Und Neißeaue Landscape Protection Area" is indeed Cat V. But a few more checks on e.g the Gardens of Versailles, Palmeral of Elche, Drottningholm and Birka/Hovgarden didn't find another - we will just have to see!

The definition would need to be changed slightly e.g to "Cultural WHS set within/containing an IUCN recognised protected area" and "Inscribed area is a cultural WHS in or containing an IUCN recognised protected area"

Author winterkjm
#81 | Posted: 11 Nov 2011 02:10 | Edited by: winterkjm 
There is a significant difference in classical Korean gardens and other East Asian ones. The primary difference is there is far less direct manipulation and alteration of the environment. Therefore, Korean gardens are more environment friendly than most. The Secret Garden in Changdeokgung Palace is actually huge, on any of the tours you are only shown a small portion (I thought I remember 10% somewhere?). Indeed much of the garden is actually a forest that was well taken care of and valued throughout the Joseon dynasty. Besides the large pond and library tours typically take visitors, there are two more large ponds and a stream farther into the garden which normal visitors are not allowed.

While we might be able to find a couple gardens containing a IUCN recognised protected area, I doubt there will be very much. Most European gardens are constructed and highly structured.

The full name is:

Changdukgung Rear Garden Ecosystem and Landscape Conservation Area

On further review it does seem to include most if not all of the Changdeokgung Palace Complex, the boundaries actually extend slightly beyond the western boundary of the palace complex. None of Changgyeongung Palace next to Changdeokgung is included, which is misleading at first glance. So I think the regular requirements stand, it seems the IUCN area is slightly larger than the cultural area!

Author Solivagant
#82 | Posted: 11 Nov 2011 02:23 
Great - that's all "of interest". One of the main purposes of "Connections" was to add "knowledge" and this one has teased out something new (to me at least) about Korean "Gardens"!

Author Durian
#83 | Posted: 11 Nov 2011 07:56 | Edited by: Durian 
The primary difference is there is far less direct manipulation and alteration of the environment. Therefore, Korean gardens are more environment friendly than most.

I don't think the more environment friendly of Changdeokgung is the reason why it is included in IUCN list, for example Guangfu Nature Reserve which is located in the city of Suzhou, a very dense populated city, the only green area is along the river and many classical chinese gardens. The area is included the Humble Admisnistrative Garden and Lingering Garden, both are WHS. As all elements of Chinese garden is truly man-made!! the area still in IUCN list under Ca V.

Author Solivagant
#84 | Posted: 11 Nov 2011 08:38 | Edited by: Solivagant 
There are significant differences between the definitions of IUCN categories IV and V which are compatible with the perceived differences between Changdeokgung's park (basically "Natural" and listed to protect species and habitats) and Guangfu - with its Humble Administrator Garden etc (basically "man-made" and listed to safeguard the arising natural values)

Cat IV
"Category IV protected areas aim to protect particular species or habitats and management reflects this priority. Many category IV protected areas will need regular, active interventions to address the requirements of particular species or to maintain habitats, but this is not a requirement of the category."

Cat V
"A protected area where the interaction of people and nature over time has produced an area of distinct character with significant ecological, biological, cultural and scenic value: and where safeguarding the integrity of this interaction is vital to protecting and sustaining the area and its associated nature conservation and other values."

(So Els we now have 3 additional WHS for this Connection!)

Author winterkjm
#85 | Posted: 12 Nov 2011 00:41 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Which connection may be most appropriate for this tragedy, if there is any connection that actually does fit?

Jeju Uprising and Massacre in 1948

Most estimates are around 30,000 civilians killed, and 70% of villages on Jeju Island destroyed. Significant remains of massacre victims have been found on Hallasan Mountain.


I have considered:

*Places of Execution

*Terrorist Attacks

*Historical Events

*Cold War

Author Solivagant
#86 | Posted: 12 Nov 2011 04:03 | Edited by: Solivagant 
We also have
Revolutionary Events
That would be my suggestion .

But we seem to have created a bit of overlap between several Connections in this area and perhaps need to clarify and slightly rearrange them.

a. Historical Events
To continue with its original purpose this Connection needs a clearer definition to avoid just listing miscellaneous events. Instead of "related to...." - perhaps "Whose OUV is directly/significantly derived from ..." (i.e Without that event the site may well not have been inscribed). Unless we maintain that "high" bar there could be "historical events" of some level at large numbers of WHS! As a result I would remove Biblical Tells, Kremlin and Red Sq, and Prague - none of these is actually inscribed because of the events. I am not sure about the Temple of Confucius and Lumbini - These are inscribed only partly because of the original "birth event" but really because of the subsequent development and use of the place because of that original event. But a connection of just "famous person born here" would mix in large numbers of birthplaces of politicians, composers, authors etc and thus dilute the significance of Confucius and Buddha's birth events to the OUV. Probably best to leave these 2 "Birth events" here?

b. Declarations of Independence.
Clearly Such "Declarations" are also "Historical Events"! But I would suggest that the "bar" remains lower here in that the Declaration doesn't have to be a direct/significant part of the OUV. There haven't been so many that this will open the floodgates! We have Independence Hall in both - but that is fair enough - the significance of the event in the OUV justifies the first and the "Declaration" justifies the second

c. Revolutionary Events.
There is no definitional text for this at all - and we have Independence Hall yet again!! Why stop there? In that sense ALL "Declarations" are "Revolutionary", but this degree of overlap becomes ridiculous so we need a more differentiated definition to exclude them! But how best to define "Revolutionary"? Not all Revolutionary events are "mass" events (E.g Castro/Granma). Not all result in "death" (e.g Velvet Revolution). Not all are "successful" (e.g the Jeju Uprising). But we need to allow all of these whilst still maintaining a degree of "forceful" action!
I suggest we change the title to "Insurrections". This brings in the concept of "rising" against the established authority but with some significant "physical" action with the aim of actually "overturning" it. A "Declaration" is not, per se, an Insurrection (though it may arise from one!). Similarly "Strikes" (for which we have a separate Connection) may be regarded as "Revolutionary events" or "Insurrections" - but most are not aimed at actually overturning the established authority - just in getting it to change its ways!
Proposed definition
"WHS at which Insurrections took place aimed at overturning the established government (whether successful or not) and involving mass action or force".

Consequential moves between Connections if the above are accepted
Independence hall would be removed from "Revolutionary events"
Kremlin/Red Sq would be moved from Historical Events to "Insurrections"
Prague ("The Prague Embassy") Could be moved from Historical Events" to "Cold War" because of its significance in breaking the Iron curtain but there is a slight problem of "overlap" with "Velvet revolution" - would these be better handled as a single event?

And what about "Biblical Tells"? I suggest extending "Sieges" to include "Battles". No Battlefields per se have been inscribed (and are unlikely to be because of offending one side or another!!). A problem however is that "battles" of some sort or another have taken place at many WHS - all those colonial sites being captured/recaptured etc between England/France and NL for instance! E.g England capturing St Louis or Goree!! Many of them however were just "skirmishes" and have never been granted the title "Battle of ....." . However there are some surprises - I have discovered "The Battle of Fort Elmina" in 1781!!
I also note that Wiki calls the same event of 1457BC both "The Siege of Megiddo" and "The Battle of Megiddo" - which seems to confirm a significant "overlap" of the term!
Perhaps the "definition" should state
"WHS within whose boundaries a Siege or Battle took place which is listed in Wiki's "List of Battles ( ) or "List of Sieges" ( )

Author Euloroo
#87 | Posted: 14 Nov 2011 04:42 
There's some fairly significant sieges that aren't on the wiki list of sieges (eg. the Lang Siege of Edinburgh Castle)

Author Solivagant
#88 | Posted: 14 Nov 2011 04:51 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Fair enough!! Suggest revised definition as follows -
WHS within whose boundaries a "Siege" or "Battle" took place for which a reference of it subsequently being called such is available. (Possible sources - Wiki's "List of Battles" or "List of Sieges" )

The "Lang Siege" could use your link!

Author winterkjm
#89 | Posted: 19 Nov 2011 02:43 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I have a suggestion for Poetic Quotations

*Royal Tombs of the Joseon Dynasty

Tombs by Chon Sang Pyong (1978)

Oriental tombs are naturalistic
western tombs are rationalistic
Oriental tombs are a union with earth
western tombs are convenience

Grass and soil
gentle outline and volume
an armful of quite atmosphere
that's our tombs...

Crammed together in a well-organized space
with a cross as small as possible
in a spot almost nobody visits
those are the white man's tombs...

Our family tombs
are on a hillside behind Daeti Village
in the Chinbuk district of Changwon county
in South Kyongsang province
We visit them once a year on New Year's Day

I posted this poem here first because it is not speaking specifically about the Royal Tombs, but really Korean tombs in general. So it might not qualify based on the requirements of the connection. However, Royal tombs are only more grander versions of normal Korean tombs. In fact, most Koreans have a burial mound plot on the side of a mountain. Koreans often visit the family burial mounds at least once a year, and perform some form of offering to their parents and ancestors. The Poet is speaking of Korean tombs in general, and then focuses at the end on his families tomb. Many of the features of Korean tombs are described in detail, particularly the relationship with Korean tombs and nature, solitude, grass, union with earth, and visited frequently by family.

What do you think, should it be included or not? I came across this poem in a nice collection of poems by Chon Sang Pyong, one of Korea's great modern poets.

Author Solivagant
#90 | Posted: 20 Nov 2011 05:16 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I fear that this is a dangerously "open ended" Connection already (I know Els wasn't entirely convinced when I originally suggested it!). I feel it should be limited to short(ish) quotes very specifically and identifiably about the inscribed WHS (and ideally the sort of quote which people would actually use) or we could find poems which relate in some way to many sites.

That said, the poem is interesting and fits quite happily within the spirit of the exchanges we have on this Forum about WHS and the cultures they represent!

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