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Author winterkjm
#61 | Posted: 3 Oct 2011 01:20 
For some reason Durian's link did not work. However, I found that his information looks to be correct. I was almost positive it was Changdeokgung palace, Prince Sado's death is one of the most shocking and dramatic stories from the Joseon dynasty. Nevertheless, the actual death seems to have occured only a couple hundred meters to the East in Changgyeonggung Palace. Thanks Durian for the correction.

Author winterkjm
#62 | Posted: 13 Oct 2011 14:01 | Edited by: winterkjm 
This is a question for Paul, Ian, and or Els. I have recently aquired Hyecho's diary and have just read the whole document and will be updating the connection shortly. My question is relating to a vague passage that seems to describe either the Ellora Caves or Ajanta Caves in Southern India.

Here is the pasage covering Hyecho's journey to Southern India

"I have arrived to the place where the Southern Indian King resides. His territory is very broad: the South extends to the Southern sea, the East to the Eastern sea, the West to the Western sea, and the north adjoins the borders of central, west and east India. The King, the chiefs, and the common people highly revere the Three Jewels. There are many monasteries and monks. Both Mahayana and Hinayana are practised. In the mountains there is a large monastery which was constructed by the Yaksas under order from the Bodhisattva Nagarjuna and not built by human beings. Moreover, the pillars were cut from rocks of the mountain and built in three stories. The monastery is over three hundred paces in circumference. During the days when Nagarjuna was alive, the monastery had over three thousand monks. But at present (720-725 AD) the monastery is ruined and there are no monks. Seven hundred years after Nagarjuna this place began to decay."

In the footnotes the author/translaters mention the area Hyecho is referring could be in Badami in the Western Chulukyas, or Vengi in the Eastern Chukyas (Andhra delta region). The description of a three-story monastery is perhaps the most important description in order to find Hyecho's location. The authors who translated Hyecho's diary presumed either the monastery was in Lower Andhra or could be identified with the Don Thal and/or Tin Thal of Ellora. (both three-storied rock cut monasteries excavated at least a century before Hyecho visited)

Author elsslots
#63 | Posted: 14 Oct 2011 07:00 
I wouldn't know, it could be either Ellora or Ajanta or Badami.

I think Paul and Ian are travelling at the moment.

Author winterkjm
#64 | Posted: 14 Oct 2011 12:46 
For the Travels of Hyecho connection can you (Els) remove the old description for Mahabodhi Temple Complex and Lumbini, which both were not from Hyecho's diary. I find it far more interesting for Hyecho to describe his travels in his own words.

Author winterkjm
#65 | Posted: 17 Oct 2011 02:29 
Is Tiergarten part of the extended Palaces and Parks of Potsdam and Berlin WHS?

Author hubert
#66 | Posted: 17 Oct 2011 04:36 
No, Tiergarten is not part of the WHS. Tiergarten is located in the centre of Berlin, close to the Reichstag and the Brandenburg Gate, and about 30 kilometres from the WHS. The Berlin parts are the Glienicke Park and the Pfaueninsel.

Author winterkjm
#67 | Posted: 17 Oct 2011 05:24 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I thought it was part of the extension added in 1999? "It extends into the district of Berlin-Zehlendorf, with the palaces and parks lining the banks of the River Havel and Lake Glienicke." - from the desription on the Unesco site

From wikipedia

1990 designation
Palace and Park of Sanssouci, Potsdam
New Garden (Neuer Garten), Marble Palace, and Chateau of Cecilienhof, northeast of Sanssouci, Potsdam
Babelsberg Park and Palace, Potsdam
Glienicke Palace and Park of Klein-Glienicke, Berlin
Volkspark Klein Glienicke, Berlin
Nikolskoe log house, Berlin
Pfaueninsel (Ile-aux-Paons), Berlin
B÷ttcherberg (Mont B÷ttcher), Berlin
Jagdschlo▀ Glienicke (Pavilion de chasse de Glienicke), Berlin

1992 extension
Church of the Redeemer, Sacrow (Heilandskirche), Potsdam
Palace and Park of Sacrow, Potsdam

1999 extension
Former Gardener's School and the Kaiserbahnhof
Palace and Park of Lindstedt
Village of Bornstedt, church, cemetery and landscape north of Sanssouci Park
The Seekoppel (landscape area west of the Mount of Ruins)
Voltaireweg (Greenbelt and road between Sans Souci park and New Garden)
Entrance Area of the Sans Souci Park
Alexandrowka log houses
The Pfingstberg and Belvedere auf dem Pfingstberg
An area between Pfingstberg and New Garden
Southern shore of the Jungfernsee
Royal Forest (forests on both sides of Palace and Park of Sacrow)
Approaches to Babelsberg Park
Observatory in Babelsberg

Where and what is Lindenallee? Does this have any connection with Unter den Linden?

Author hubert
#68 | Posted: 17 Oct 2011 06:48 
These two should not be confused. Lindenallee is the continuation of the main axis of the Sanssouci Park outside the park boundaries. It starts at the New Palace and ends in the west at the city border of Potsdam. It is indeed difficult to find, it is not shown on Google Maps. As far as I know, the Lindenallee is closed to traffic and is only a path for pedestrians and cyclists. All the extensions of 1999 are located in Potsdam, around the Park Sanssouci, Park Babelsberg and New Garden. Some of these places are hard to find, even with a map of Potsdam. I have visited Potsdam in 2009 and spent three days there. I remember the first evening in a pub in Potsdam. Even with the help of some locals, it took a long time until we had found all the sites on the map.
As you may know, Unter den Linden is a boulevard in central Berlin between the Brandenburg Gate and the Museums Island (but not within the Tiergarten).

Author winterkjm
#69 | Posted: 17 Oct 2011 13:52 
Thanks for your clarifications. Here is the diary passage that I was making a connection with. Please let me know if it has any connection with the forementioned site. From your information, I am presuming no.

3 June 1897 (Lunar date: 4/5) Bright.
"At 6:00 P.M. we arrived in Berlin...We went to the main streets. There were densely packed, multistoried buildings as well as green grass and luxurious vegetation. Many of the walls of the houses were made of red brick. The main roads were all clean without a speck of dust. In addition there was a river that curved around into the city, where it formed a circular lake. There was a brick embankment, on top of which were planted many kinds of trees such as elms, willows, peach, and apricot trees. Reds and greens mixed together flickering on the rippled surface of the water so that it was just like a painting...I had previously heard that Berlin's zoo was the best in the world, and now I know it truly is. There was a park beside it, which was extremely spacious. (Tiergarten) The green trees provided coolness, and the twittering of a hundred birds made one suddenly forget the bitter cares of this world. Our party rested beneath the shade of the trees and briefly took a light meal. We went through the gates of the park and returned to the station."

Author hubert
#70 | Posted: 17 Oct 2011 17:16 
The parks in the centre of Berlin and the Berlin Zoo are not part of WHS. Berlin is indeed a very green city with a lot of parks. The connection is that both, the parks in Berlin (including the Berlin Zoo) and the Parks in Potsdam were created in the same period, between mid of the 18th Century and the early 20th Century, under the rule of the Hohenzollern dynasty. I am sure, that the text you cited refers to central Berlin, to the Berlin Zoo and the Tiergarten Park. Whose diary is it?
By the way , it is really confusing that "Tiergarten" is the term for 1. the park in central Berlin, 2. a district in Berlin, and 3. (in translation) the name for "Zoo Berlin"

Author winterkjm
#71 | Posted: 17 Oct 2011 22:09 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Tiergarten and the Zoo are very close to each other. Anyway, I was just making sure. The diary is a late Joseon dynasty diplomat who was the first Korean envoy to Europe. He was sent on many diplomatic missions, and being the first government official from the Joseon government to leave Korea on such a mission his travel account is important. Sometimes the author is vague because he does not know all the names of specific places. However, there are many WHS that he explains in detail.

I am trying to clear up a couple that are vague though. Here is another site he may have visited briefly or likely seen only from the riverfront. While he does confuse the Tower bridge with the london bridge (like many people), he also describes these batteries, which could be providing a basic desription of the Tower of London, no? Also what is this lighthouse?

28 June 1897 (Lunar date: 29/5) Bright and warm.
"At 2:00 P.M. our official companion Cavendish met our party with a carriage, and we travelled around the streets. We passed one iron bridge called London bridge. The bridge spans the river Thames. There are four vertical towers containing machines weighing several hundred thousand tons. One person can open and shut the bridge so that people may cross over it. There are two sides of the bridge that rise and fall through the air like a pair of rainbows. Also, on the banks of the river there are gun batteries and a lighthouse more than 100 chang high. They are all magnificient sights."

Author Durian
#72 | Posted: 17 Oct 2011 22:40 
I think the only lighthouse in London is near Trinity Wharf, quite far from the Tower. But we need confirm from our Londonner, Meltwaterfall.

Author meltwaterfalls
#73 | Posted: 18 Oct 2011 05:50 
In regards to the earlier question about Indian monestries I'm not familiar with Badami, however of Ajanta and Ellora I would suggest this:
Moreover, the pillars were cut from rocks of the mountain and built in three stories.
was more a description of Ellora as I don't remember anything of that size at Ajanta.

In regards to the London question I don't really know where the lighthouse is he talks of, and that part of London has changed alot since then. However, it seems he has fallen for the old problem of confusing London Bridge with Tower Bridge, the descritption is almost certainly of Tower Bridge in which case, the gun battery he speaks of would probably be the Tower of London (an unusual description but one that could make sense through translations) as it is right next to it.

Author paul
#74 | Posted: 18 Oct 2011 13:41 
I have been to Badami - a long time ago! My recollection is that it was much less impressive and much more cave like than Ellora. I agree with meltwaterfalls in that Ellora fits the description best.

How does els know I am traveling? Anyway hello from Madrid

Author winterkjm
#75 | Posted: 18 Oct 2011 16:46 | Edited by: winterkjm 
For the Toyotomi Hideyoshi connection, perhaps a new name should be placed which is more accurate to the connection. I propose Hideyoshi and his Dream of Conquering China

Since I had never added a biographical note, Els added a brief one. I would also suggest to add this from wikipedia.

In addition to: Toyotomi Hideyoshi(1536-1598) - was a daimyo in the Sengoku period who unified the political factions of Japan. Hideyoshi is regarded as Japan's second "great unifier".

also include:

"Toyotomi Hideyoshi changed Japanese society in many ways. These include imposition of a rigid class structure, restriction on travel, and surveys of land and production. With his health beginning to falter, but still yearning for some accomplishment to solidify his legacy, Hideyoshi adopted the dream of a Japanese conquest of China that Oda Nobunaga had contemplated, and launched two ill-fated invasions of Korea. Though he actually intended to conquer Ming China. The invasions are also known as Hideyoshi's invasions of Korea, the Seven Year War, the Imjin Waeran in Korea, and Bunroku Keichō no eki in Japan." - Wiki

It may also be more accurat to have this connection placed under the history category, since Hideyohsi never set foot on Korea.

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