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Connection Queries?

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Author Durian
#31 | Posted: 1 Sep 2011 21:56 
Dear Els,

Recently I read and rechecked some connections and discovered that some information need to be change as follows;

One million visitors or more

Jeju - it is true that Jeju Island is become popular but we should scope only for WHS Zone eg. Hallasan NP, the lava tube and certain volcano, from UNEP report (update May 2011) only Ilchulbong Volcanic Cone recieved visitor more than a million which is 1.2 million.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi

Nara - Asukadera is not part of Nara WHS


Kyoto - Ujigami's spring is used for tea ceremony only, not for tea plantation, the WHS zone for Ujigami and Byodoin is not covered the Uji tea plantations which located in the SE of the town.


Caserta's San Leucio is in the list two time

Botanical Garden

Suzhou's Master of the Net Garden is a classical chinese garden, not a botanical garden


Suzhou is famous for its many canal but WHS is only for the gardens, I don't think all ponds and waterways in the garden can be considered as canal in general way. And this quite obvious as China is planning to extend WHS in Suzhou to include the canal zone in the old city.

Author winterkjm
#32 | Posted: 2 Sep 2011 14:57 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Concerning the Travels of Hyecho connection, it is hard to find detailed information on his journey. I cannot find the diary text online. However, the diary was published in English in 1984. I am trying to locate a copy through my local library. When I read the diary I will add all new sites, and perhaps update any existing site connection with a primary document quote. The diary is around 120 pages. Since Xuazang made his journey before Hyecho the later is mentioned far more often.

It seems likely he also visited the Yungang Grottos, Potala Palace (Though this site was far different in the 8th century), and perhaps many other sites in India, Pakistan, and China.

In the Northeast Asian History Foundation website further travels are mentioned
"He travels west for a month to reach Persia, and then the Arabian Peninsula. He hears about the Göktürks of Samarkand."

Author winterkjm
#33 | Posted: 3 Sep 2011 03:26 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I just realized, quite a while back I may have suggested a connection to the wrong place. Rock Cut Architecture - Gyeongju, probably belongs in Rock Cut Art.

Author Durian
#34 | Posted: 4 Sep 2011 10:07 | Edited by: Durian 

Kyoto - Ujigami's spring is used for tea ceremony only, not for tea plantation, the WHS zone for Ujigami and Byodoin is not covered the Uji tea plantations which located in the SE of the town.

from my last post, Ujigami is not related to tea plantation, but I did a bit research and discovered that Kozanji Temple, one of the WHS temples of Kyoto has tea plantation and considered as the oldest tea garden in Japan (12th Century), so I think we can bring back Kyoto for tea connection again, eventhough not from the famous Uji green tea, but from the less known Togano tea. Also after read post on China Danxia, I did some google search and found that Mount Danxia is also have tea plantation called "Danxia Baimao Tea" so we have another new tea connection.

Author winterkjm
#35 | Posted: 7 Sep 2011 14:03 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Habitat, Bear
Habitat, Chimpanzee
Habitat, Crocodile
Habitat, Gorilla
Habitat, Gray Wolf
Habitat, Otter
Habitat, Penguin
Habitat, Rhino
Habitat, Snow Leopard
Habitat, Tiger
Habitat, Turtle and Tortoise
Habitat, Whale

So I am assuming this organizational style was not a popular idea? It is just sometimes hard to locate particular connections.

Author Solivagant
#36 | Posted: 7 Sep 2011 14:56 
Sorry you feel there was "lack of support"! I think it is quite a good idea but had assumed that Els has a lot else to do! The new way of showing Connections by groups for each site which Els introduced a few weeks back (and has also been a good innovation) means really that we don't want any more "major" groupings so some other way of bringing together similar subjects within a higher level subject is needed. Your suggested approach has a particular plus point that there is no need to agonise thinking of ways of handling Connections which don't easily "subgroup" (the dreaded "Other"!). If they don't then we just leave them as now. Another way of "subgrouping" would be to have a more formal subtype - e.g as per the "Hot spot" subject but it still has that difficulty and also "hides" all the connections at the highest level -it is nice to be able to scroll through all of them quickly and that would be lost with a "Hotspot" type of subgroup.

Author Solivagant
#37 | Posted: 9 Sep 2011 04:40 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Offshore of a Major City

When I proposed this connection I had intended "Offshore" to mean that one reached the site by boat/ferry - ideally from the city centre itself or from a nearby suburban quay (e.g Muiden for Pampus which is 12kms from Amsterdam). Ok, the definition doesn't specifically state this but all of my original connections stated the ferry departure point. This concept seemed to have merit and interest and there have certainly been far more such sites found than I had originally expected!

All of these seem to fit the "spirit" of the Connection other than the Gochang, Hwasun, and Ganghwa Dolmen site. Ok - it is on an island (across a narrow channel connected by bridges to the mainland) and 38kms from Incheon (its 25kms distance from N Korea's Kaesong isn't really relevant for travel planning!!) but isn't reached by boat.

The details for the new connection of Australian Convict sites are not yet "up" - I assume it will be for Cockatoo Island - reached by ferry from Circular Quay Sydney. It shouldn't also refer to Isle of the Dead off Port Arthur which only has a population of c500.

I would suggest that this Connection be clarified so that its definition reads
"WHS which are situated on an island situated offshore from a major city and are reached by boat/ferry from downtown or a nearby port/quay"
and that Gochang etc be removed.

It could be worth adding these ferry details for Miyajima. "Motoyasubashi Pier of the Hiroshima Peace Park, run by Aqua Net. 50 minutes (and from Miyajimagochi 25 mins from Hiroshima by Rail)"

Author Euloroo
#38 | Posted: 9 Sep 2011 06:00 
Solivagant, the connection is indeed for Cockatoo Island which has a half hourly ferry service from Circular Quay and additional daily services from Darling Harbour.

For the underground river connection, does this include natural rivers that have been placed underground by man. e.g. The River Tyburn which now runs directly under Westminster Abbey?

Author Solivagant
#39 | Posted: 9 Sep 2011 07:31 | Edited by: Solivagant 
My intuition would be that, since the Connection as currently defined is placed in the "Ecology" section, it only applies to "natural" underground rivers.

It could of course be redefined - or else a new Connection created for "Man-made Underground rivers"!! My inclination would be to try for the latter.

Does the Tyburn actually flow "under" Westminster Abbey?? This Wiki suggests not - rather that the Abbey was built on Thorney Island which was in the middle of a number of branches of the Tyburn. One of the links from that Wiki page states "The river's course was also drastically changed by the city. Instead of running toward the site of Westminster Abbey, it was channeled further south and ran into the Thames near the site of the Vauxhall Bridge". So, any Connection would need to be "once removed". e.g "Originally built on an island in the River Tyburn - which has since been diverted and runs underground".

And - are there another 2?
a. Paris Banks of Seine.
The original effluence of the River Bievre into the Seine was where the Rue de Bievre is situated today - situated on the south bank at the eastern end of Ile de la Cite. It has since been moved further east. See
b. Kremlin and Red Square
the Western walls of the Kremlin were defined by the River Neglinnaya
"The Kremlin was built on a hill west of the Neglinnaya, using the river as a moat" (Wiki) and "At one time the River Neglinnaya, a tributary of the Moskva, flowed along here protecting the Kremlin walls. There were two bridges over the Neglinnaya, a drawbridge by the Pine-Grove Tower and a stone arched bridge linking the Trinity and Kutafia towers". The river now flows underground elsewhere and its original bed constitutes the Alexandrovsky Gardens which run alongside the Kremlin walls and are (probably??) outside the Kremlin WHS boundary - but still , I feel, "connectable" on the basis of the river's role in the placement of the Walls etc?

On re-reading this it might be better defined as
"Re-routed rivers - WHS connected with Rivers having undergone major man-made changes to their original location " (wording to avoid including sites with only minor adjustments!!)
If this is the case then I think that Vienna would also need to be included as I think that earlier beds of the the Wien River and Donaukanal are within the inscribed area (Assif??)

Author winterkjm
#40 | Posted: 9 Sep 2011 12:11 
When I proposed this connection I had intended "Offshore" to mean that one reached the site by boat/ferry - ideally from the city centre itself or from a nearby suburban quay.

If this criteria is added the Korean Dolmens do not meet the requirements. I checked there seems to be no ferries to Ganghwa Island, only a ferry within Ganghwa Island to other local islands.

I certainly was not adding Kaesong information for travel plannning! No I only added this information because it might be of interest to visitors, in that the island is very close to North Korea, in fact northern sections of the island can easily view North Korea on a clear day. Perhaps one day being only 25km from Kaesong will be important and advantageous for Ganghwa island.

Author Solivagant
#41 | Posted: 10 Sep 2011 04:05 
Guanajuato would be another site for a connection of "Diverted river" -see above for Westminster, Paris, Kremlin and Vienna. e.g "Another distinct feature of Guanajuato is the network of underground caverns and built to divert the Guanajuato River underneath the city. "

Author Durian
#42 | Posted: 10 Sep 2011 08:51 
When I proposed this connection I had intended "Offshore" to mean that one reached the site by boat/ferry - ideally from the city centre itself or from a nearby suburban quay

Solivagant, there are some sites located on the island that can be reached directly by both ferry/boat and land transportation. For example, Drottningholm Palace and Birka which can be reached by ferry on summer from Stockholm. However the word "Offshore" in my understanding only mean in the sea, not in the lake. So maybe you can consider these two sites to be OK or not for this connection.

Author Solivagant
#43 | Posted: 10 Sep 2011 10:30 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Funny - I had thought of the same issue and concluded the same - In English, lakes have "banks" not "shores" unless they are VERY big and are treated as "seas" - eg Lake Superior etc. There is a difference too between sites which CAN be reached by ferry and those which HAVE to be so reached - e.g Greenwich, Tower of London, Westminster and Kew Gardens CAN all be reached by boat/ferry - but none of them would be regarded as being "off-shore". The only situation not covered is for a "sea island" which CAN be reached by road because of new bridges/tunnels etc. Suomenlinna is not of this type because as I understand it the tunnel is not for general use. Even if it was, I would still count it for this connection because it is "offshore" (Assuming the Gulf of Finland counts as a sea!) , is reachable by ferry from Helsinki and only ceased being an island with the advent of 20C technology

Author winterkjm
#44 | Posted: 11 Sep 2011 00:23 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Concerning the Granite Rock Formations connection I think Mt. Namsan of "Gyeongju Hisotoric Areas" is full of granite formations. However, I cannot find a single mention where this is explicitly stated. Here are a couple quotes that make it clear taken together that Mt. Namsan contains significant granite rock formations. The rock cut reliefs and statues are largely done on huge boulders, which are presumably granite. Furtheremore, nearly all the pagodas on the mountain are white granite. (I don't think many building materials were hauled up the mountain, instead the natural formations of Mt. Namsan were used.

"Mt. Namsan is also famous for its scenic landscapes in addition to its cultural heritage. It features numerous valleys, unique rock formations, and beautiful trails." -

"These cultural properties and historic sites are mostly on a solid rock bed." - Nomination File

"The Gyeongsang Basin (Most of Gyeongju lies in the Gyeongsang Basin) areas consist of Bulguksa intrusive rock penetrating layers of sedimentary rocks, mainly granite and porphyry." - wiki

Mt. Namsan - "With the spread of Buddhism it became the earthly representation of Sumeru, the heavenly mountain of the Buddhist lands. Its gorges and ridges are embellished with granite pagodas." - AB Document

Author Solivagant
#45 | Posted: 11 Sep 2011 03:48 | Edited by: Solivagant 
There seems no doubt that the Mt Namsan site includes exposed granitic rocks and that the granite carvings are on that in situ rock i.e not brought there. E.g "The seated Seokgayeorae image, an outstanding cultural heritage monument and a tourist destination in the Gyeongju Historic Areas is a statue of Buddha cut into a rock face of granite at Mt Namsan"

I think a bigger issue about this Connection concerns what is meant by "Formations". In strict Geological academic terms every in situ example of ANY sort of rock is a "formation". In less academic terms it would need to be something a bit more unusual e.g the Balancing rocks of the Matabos or the enormous granite domes of Yosemite.
If we are going to list every WHS which contains some exposed Granite we could be putting together a long list with a lot of rather esoteric geological references. Wiki says of Granite "Granite is a common and widely occurring type of intrusive, felsic, igneous rock."

So, almost at random, I have checked that Geghard is carved from Granite, and Mt Emei and Polonnaruwa and .... no doubt lots of other places (particularly those with rock cut art and architecture which is often going to be granitic).

I would have thought this connection should relate to some particular merit of the natural aspects of the granite at the site in determining its OUV rather than to the mere presence of an exposed granitic "formation" and that the base rock on which carving has taken place could be referred to in the carving connections

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