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Out or In Doubt #15

Author elsslots
#1 | Posted: 14 Feb 2010 05:10 | Edited by: elsslots 
(2498) Carolingian Empire
>> please explain

(2496) Notable hotels
Provins - Hostellerie de la Croix d'Or, gilt als ältestes Hotel Frankreichs, derzeit ein Restaurant
>> I cannot find evidence that it is still operating as a hotel

(2493) Tunnels
>> please name it

(2486) Jewish religion and culture
Colonia del Sacramento - a large part of Colonia's original Portuguese population was Jewish.
>> are there any visible remains?

(2483) Oriental Orthodox
Olkhon - Karakorum used to have a Nestorian (Assyrian) church. While not Oriental Orthodox the Nestorian church is often classified as such having broken away from the rest of Christianity even earlier than the Oriental Orthodox branches.
>> I will reject it because it's not Oriental Orthodox, but am looking for 2 other Nestorian sites to make a connection!

(2464) Location for a classic movie
Independence Hall - National Treasure
>> [not classic]

(2458) Cemeteries
Nisa - New Nisa - In Neu-Nisa wurde auch ein Friedhof entdeckt.
>> [nothing in nomination document, all very vague]

Formerly inhabited: Pitcairn, Henderson, St Kilda
>> Pitcairn is no WHS

(2390) Cultural sites rejected for Natural criteria
I think that the Matobo Hills was earlier nominated as a natural site but didn't make it. So it ended up being nominated as a cultural landscape several decades later.
>> Cannot find the historical evidence, which year was the earlier nomination?

(2384) Statues
Strasbourg-Grande îsle - Place Gutenberg - Place Kléber
>> which statues? Are they significant?

(2304) Cultural sites connected to Cliffs
Mont-Saint-Michel and its Bay - cliffs of Champeaux
>> Is this part of the WHS?

(2288) Tintin
Cheverny is outside the WHS boundary!
>> connection deleted

(1701) Built or owned by French
>> which part?

(1652) Locations for playing sport
Wadden Zee -mud walking
>> not really a sport, more kind of folklore

(1379) Statues
Cyrene - In 2005, Italian archaeologists from the University of Urbino discovered 76 intact Roman statues at Cyrene from the 2nd century AD.
>> not in situ anymore?

2418) Ossuary
Kutná Hora : Sedlec Ossuary
Paris, Banks of the Seine : Catacombs of Paris
>> Both are outside the borders of the WHS

Author Solivagant
#2 | Posted: 14 Feb 2010 08:49 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Re "Formerly inhabited" (not of course counting the scientists who we "allow" to be present on an otherwise "uninhabited island"!)
Skellig Michael was inhabited by Monks
Aldabra was inhabited by various small groups of tortoise catchers, wood collectors, fishermen, guano collectors etc . My book on Aldabra has photos of some graves and the interior of a catholic church. I could provide more details from it if required
Henderson Island has archaeological remains of Polynesian settlement plus the occasional shipwrecked sailors/castaways!
St Kilda - of course

Delos - I see we have this as an "uninhabited island". On what basis? Wiki says the Greek census shows 14 inhabitants.

Re Panama - Owned/Built by French. We have been through this before I think ge=0#msg1401
Presumably the possibility relates to the de Lesseps period but, alothugh I tried to find something on the Web I could find no tangible connection with that period cited as being within the inscribed site - doesn't mean that there isn't though!

Re the Matobo Hills earlier nomination as a Natural Site.
The minutes of the Bureau of 1984 state that the site had been reviewed by both ICOMOS AND IUCN (which seems to imply that it must have been nominated on both Natural and Culturla ciriteria -the concept of "Cultural Landscape" wasn't then accepted by UNESCO). ICOMOS had been positive regarding the rock art and Zimbabwe was asked to resubmit with greater clarity regarding both the natural and cultural criteria. See page 16

Author meltwaterfalls
#3 | Posted: 15 Feb 2010 06:05 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
(2384) Statues
Strasbourg-Grande îsle - Place Gutenberg - Place Kléber
>> which statues? Are they significant?

I am guessing this refers to the statues of the eponymous historical figures on each of the squares.

Not sure if that would be the start of a slippery slope, I would guess that well over half the inscribed urban areas on the list will have some kind of statue it in.

(2304) Cultural sites connected to Cliffs
Mont-Saint-Michel and its Bay - cliffs of Champeaux
>> Is this part of the WHS?

I just had a quick look at the map on the official site and yes I think cliffs of Champeaux are part of the WHS. They are the patch of land included about 10km north of the Island. I guess the cliffs are included as the view of the island and bay from there is particularly fine (judging by the images on Google Earth) and therefore they don't want any obstacles to it.

This also means that one of the three Cabanes Vauban is included in the WHS (pictures here). This would lead to a Vauban Connection: Fortifications of Vauban, Mt St Michel and its Bay and Luxembourg. I also just saw that the Porte St Jacques in Saint Jean Pied de Port is directly connected to the Vauban Citadel there so the Route to Santiago could perhaps also be added.

Author Jasam
#4 | Posted: 16 Feb 2010 08:52 
You beat me to it!
I'm the one who suggested the cliffs of Champeaux (which definitely are part of the WHS, as you can see on both the 1979 and 2006 maps). I was going to suggest the Vauban connection next. Indeed, the Cabane Vauban of Champeaux is inside the boundaries (the one in Saint-Jean-le-Thomas is just outside).

Author Solivagant
#5 | Posted: 16 Feb 2010 10:08 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Re Panama and Built Owned by French
I have discovered that the Museo del Canal Interoceánico de Panamá situated in the Casco Viejo has "connections" back to the de Lesseps canal adventure! See

The company set up to build the canal was called the "Compagnie Universelle du Canal Interocéanique" incorporated in France and with its HQ in Paris. However its Panama city offcie was in the same building as is now occupied by the above museum. The building was constructed in 1875 as the "Grand Hotel" and the French canal company was operating from 1880-89. Subsequently it has had many different uses. See

So it was certainly not "Built by" the French but was it "owned by" them!! Well I came across this which states that the company actually purchased the building (rather than leasing or renting it) - so Connection established!!
"La Compañía adquirió el edificio donde se encontraba el Grand Hotel y que fue reacondicionado a todo lujo, para allí instalar sus oficinas centrales. Este local, todavía en pié, sirvió por muchísimos años para el Servicio de Correos y Telégrafos, lo mismo que para dependencias del Ministerio de Educación"

Colon seems to have been the main point of operations - hardly surprising since it is on the Atlantic side for supplies and labour (from Jamaica in particular). The company did buy the trans Isthmus railway but its route does not extend to the inscribed area. This Web site contains a number of other background points about the French in Panama which might be of interest.

Author Solivagant
#6 | Posted: 13 Mar 2010 08:47 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I note the recent addition of a "Connection" of Cycoliths (Stone Circles) for Caral Supe. I am not sure about this!

I note that Wiki states "All of these sites in the Supe valley share similarities with Caral. They had small platforms or stone circles" - but are such "circles" "Cycoliths"?

Neither the Nomination File nor the AB evaluation describe anything like a Cycolith-type of Stone circle!

What "circularity" there is at the several sites making up the inscription seems to relate to
a. "Circular Plazas " e.g "Each of the settlements had public buildings, the typical sunken circular plaza"
b. "Circular Altars" e.g "This altar, with only one exception, is circular in the buildings in the lower half of the city, and square in those of the upper half."
Neither is "sensu stricto" a "Stone Circle" I fear - they may be made of stone and be circular but then so is the Dome of St Peters!
Any alternative evidence?

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 Out or In Doubt #15

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