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Out or In Doubt #13

Author elsslots
#1 | Posted: 4 Dec 2009 11:24 
Here we go again. "Out" are (until you give me a good reason otherwise):
- Connections to common animals (butterflies, elephants, llamas, amphibians). Let's limit ourselves to the really rare species of wild animals.

- Sacred Mountains
Mount of Olives is outside the WHS
>>It is indeed, so I deleted 3 connections

- 19th century shopping arcades
rue de Rivoli is just outside the WHS boundary
>> I deleted the connection

- Longest WHS names
Budapest (not that long though) and a couple of Italian sites (Caserta, Cilanto and The Last Supper).
>> they're not >90 characters long, like the others on this connection

(2182) Cathedrals
St Stephen in Budapest is outside the WHS
>> it looks like it is situated in the buffer zone, so I deleted the connection

(2167) Twin Towns
Xanthos & Letoon >> not 2 rivalling towns (Letoon was a sanctuary close to the Lycian capital Xanthos)
I have doubts (for the same reason) about Kilwa Kisiwani & Songo Mnara and Humberstone & Santa Laura

(2086) Coronation Locations
I believe the firts portuguese kings were crownd in Guimaraes, then they moved to the convent of the hieronymites.
>> Possibly OK, bit I cannot find evidence

(2073) Invention of sweets
Venice – Zabaglione
>> might have been 'invented' in several places and no direct link to a specific location in Venice, see Italian wiki]

(1713) Oriental Orthodox
There is no Syriac church in Jerusalem but Assyrian (Nestorian) one which is not Oriental Orthodox but split even before.
>> I found St. Mark's Syrian Orthodox Church on Mount Zion (is this within the inscribed area???)

(1701) Built or owned by French
Aachen Cathedral, City of Luxembourg
>> Both were founded by the Franks, the predecessors of the contemporary French. Do we include this?

(1392) Mausolea
>> Building with the Round Hall was meant here? AB evaluation says use of the building is not known (so not clear if it is a mausoleum or not)

(718) Walled cities
Polonnaruwa and Sigiriya are walled cities in Sri Lanka
>> they are ruins now, certainly not cities and I don't think they are still almost complete

Author Khuft
#2 | Posted: 4 Dec 2009 15:11 
Regarding Coronation Locations:

According to this website (in Portuguese)

there was never a Coronation Ceremony in Portugal; the new king was "acclaimed" as king after the death of the old king. Portuguese kings would wear crowns, but there was no formal ceremony to actually crown them.

According to the article, some Portuguese kings inquired with the pope or other monarchs about crowning ceremonies; while such a ceremony was approved by the pope, it was never performed, and Portugal maintained "acclamation" as the way of introducing a new king.

I can't guarantee that the information on this blog is correct, but it would point into the direction of deleting all Portuguese sites from the "Coronation Locations" connection.

Author Khuft
#3 | Posted: 4 Dec 2009 15:21 
This brings me, though, to the Connection "Tombs": the Monastery of the Hieronymites in Lisbon contains the tombs of King Manuel I and King John III; tombs for Vasco da Gama and Luis de Camoes (famous Portuguese poet) were added in the 19th century (not sure whether Luis de Camoes is actually buried in the tomb though...)

Maybe it could be added to the "Tombs" connection?

Author Khuft
#4 | Posted: 4 Dec 2009 15:27 
Regarding "Built or owned by the French":
the city and fortress of Luxembourg was certainly owned (and partly built) by the French - indeed, Sun King Louis XIV besieged the city and annexed the duchy (Vauban then augmented the fortifications of the city of Luxembourg).
After being regained by the Austrians, France annexed Luxembourg again under the 1st Republic and until the downfall of Napoleon.

Author Solivagant
#5 | Posted: 4 Dec 2009 16:25 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Interesting point about the "acclamation" of Portuguese kings - it certainly appears to be correct. A number of searches on Portuguese monarchy all resulted in responses using the word "acclamation" and then this more informative quote
"The Last Portuguese monarch to be actually Crowned was Dom Sebastião, who died in a military campaign. The Crown Jewels of that time disappeared together with his body.
Subsequent Kings of Portugal had Crowns and other Regalia, but were not Crowned with them.
There was a festive cerimony of <<Acclamation>>, followed by a Mass of Thanksgiving, in which Te Deum laudamus was sung. At least until the time of Dom João VI, the ceremony of acclamation included homage to the King in the form of hand kissing, but there was no Coronation proper, nor was there any anointing.) "
( )

Of course - if the purpose (as surely it is?) of the connection is to identify those locations where Kings/queens were ceremonially "installed" then, by extending the definition to include "acclamation", the Portuguese equivalents could be "allowed". There is also the complication of the suggestion that Portuguese kings pre 1578 were crowned - this Wiki article ("Crown of Portugal") supports this view :- "The crown of the Kings of Portugal has an interesting and particular characterístic: after 1640 until 1910 (Proclamation of the Republic) there was no more real coronation of the King or Queen. It was substituted by a ceremony called Aclamation, where the soberain received the other regalias and the crown remained beside him (and not in his head). This tradition was initiated with the restoration of the Portuguese independence in 1640: the King John IV deposited his crown at the foot of an image of Our Lady the Immaculate Concepcion and so calling her "The Real Queen Of Portugal"

Author Solivagant
#6 | Posted: 5 Dec 2009 03:35 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Further to my suggestion that all "installation" ceremonies for monarchs should be allowed under the "Coronation" Connection I note that, as well as "Affirmation", another approach to "installing" a monarch is "Consecration".
Thus this has been written about the Norwegian monarchy
"Beginning in 1163, new monarchs were consecrated to their office during the coronation ceremony. King Haakon VII and Queen Maud were the last Norwegian monarchs to be crowned. In 1958, when their son King Olav V inherited the throne, the coronation ceremony was replaced with a consecration ceremony".
The Portuguese blog quoted by Khuft above suggests that French monarchs were "Consecrated" rather than being "Crowned" - I can't establish other evidence that this was the case - though there is always the possiblity that the word "coronation" is being used loosely in some of the examples I have looked at. More likely that both "events" took place within the single ceremony - representing I suppose both the secular and religious dimensions of the event. Another interesting example is the "The Consecration of the Emperor Napoleon and the Coronation of Empress Josephine" (sic). I presume the 2 words have been used advisedly in relation to each of the persons!

It would seem best to allow any form of ceremony which installed a Monarch/Emperor under this "Connection" whatever it was called/whatever form it took??

Author Khuft
#7 | Posted: 5 Dec 2009 13:44 
Yeah, I agree that would probably be the best.

Regarding the "consecration" of French kings - I think the ceremony included anointing the king with Sacred Oils or Ungents... that may be the reason for the different word.

Author Assif
#8 | Posted: 5 Dec 2009 20:01 
Regarding Syriac church - I was wrong saying it was Assyrian. I was based on the Heb wiki which was wrong. After being there lately I know for sure it is Syriac (within the walled city) and the faulty wiki article has been corrected.

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 Out or In Doubt #13

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