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Adding Categories to TWHS

 
 
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Author elsslots
Admin
#31 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 02:51 | Edited by: elsslots 
winterkjm:
*FYI - Not sure why Jongmyo Shrine (WHS) is included in both cultural and natural categories [
Natural landscape - Rivers and Lakes]

Ah, good find. This may be a temporary issue, I still need to separate the WHS categories from the TWHS categories as WHS and TWHS sometimes share the same id. So the Rivers and Lakes here belong to a TWHS with the same id.

In the backend database they are separated already, so continuing with adding new TWHS categories is no issue.
But I need to fix the frontend (the individual WHS and TWHS pages). Will work on it this weekend!

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#32 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 03:22 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Hi Els, Have just been looking at our email exchanges on this subject from way back in Sept 2005 when we first started trying to put together a "Category List" - all the same old issues arise now as were tossed around then!! But I guess we have 16 years of experience and the system has stood up pretty well and, IMO, doesn't need major surgery! But I am not sure that "Burials" is the "only" place with a problem - however there is undoubtedly one there and I think we can best solve it by allowing 2 categories in the circumstances you identify. The problem then becomes - in what other circumstances are 2 categories justified.
A couple of principles
a. We continue to try to achieve our objectives within 1 category per site
b. We only move to 2 categories in cases where, after discussion, you agree that to do so adds insight and value.

Astraftis:
Could we settle about a distinction between two kinds of categories, a "qualitative" and a "factual" one, which can get combined? So, we might regard a category assigned to a WHS as actually comprised of two such elements, not necessarily both, but at least one.

An interesting, and useful distinction, but, as Els replies, (and without going into the detailed examples you provide and whether they are all valid) we are already managing, in many cases, to cover the 2 types within the current list. The "Factual" often gets subdivided into the "Qualitative" - but only as long as there are not too many subdivisions - and that raises the issue of which subdivisions and how many are "too many" (and what to do with the odds and ends which don't fit into a subdivision)! The problem" with Burial places is the intersection of 2 "value adding" factual aspects (what it was built for and what it is used for)- at least one of which has its own qualitative subdivisions (which religion)!

elsslots:
I am not in favor of mixing the natural categories with the cultural ones. So no Spas within volcanic/thermal.

Agreed.

Astraftis:
Here I believe that an elegant and effcient solution would be to apply the United Nations geoscheme of subregions. So yes, we would have Central Asian, and rightly so!

I note that the UN list has 22 subdivisions. Do we really want to get involved in subdividing "Europe" into N, E , S and W? And any individual site might, because of history and being close to a current frontier, actually exhibit the characteristics from a different part of Europe - we don't want blindly to follow a subdivision created for different purposes. On the whole we want no more geographic subdivisions than are necessary in order to avoid mixing sites from very different cultural traditions within a large list. I think we all agree that the distinction between our current geographical split of "Arabic/Middle Eastern" and "Asian" for Urban Landscape isn't very good/useful. I note also that it doesn't coincide with our geographic subdivision of Archaeological sites - "Near Easterm", "Far Eastern", "South (East) Asian". That may be justified but is worth looking at??
Using the UN division they cover Western, Southern, Central, Eastern and S Eastern. It is "interesting" that, what with our "European viewpoint" we categorise as "Middle Eastern", gets called "Western Asian"!! My own personal view is that we should have 3 geographic subdivisions rather than UN's 5 (and our existing 2) - Middle East/Arab (which, for us includes "Arab N Africa" unlike the UN definition), Asian (to include the UN Central and Southern Asia) and East Asia (comprising UN's East and S East). A compromise between having too many and too few and recognising the close affinities between India and Central Asia on one hand and China/S East Asia on the other. But, I wouldn't object to having 5 - Just having "Asia" is certainly too big.

In all cases with Categories the aim is mainly to produce a logical subset which isn't too big or too small but provides a "population" valid in its own right and capable of being further subdivided as required by each of us - I would be happy to look at an Asian category of up to c50 WHS and mentally see how many of them were "Central Asian"....or any other subgrouping I might find interesting.

Author elsslots
Admin
#33 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 06:40 | Edited by: elsslots 
Solivagant:
. I think we all agree that the distinction between our current geographical split of "Arabic/Middle Eastern" and "Asian" for Urban Landscape isn't very good/useful.

I am not too bothered by it. When you look at the OUV of the ones now classified under Urban Landscapes - Asian, the influences that are named are mostly within a small region anyway (Samarkand/Bukhara - Central Asian, Ahmedabad/Jaipur - West Indian, Hue/Kaesong - East Asian, Luang Prabang - Laotian/colonial), or even a local "point solution" (Yazd, Fujian Tulou, Kathmandu, Shirakawa). They're not typical for the whole of "Asia", but neither are they for "East Asia" or whatever split into 3 or 5 we'd go for.

If we'd want to improve it, I'd go for a non-geographical split. Maybe cities versus villages, but that would need a definition of "village".

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#34 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 07:58 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
I am not too bothered by it

So, what do we do about central Asian mausolea etc.... Just use Asian? . Ok by me. And Shakhrisabz.. Currently in Middle Eastern.. Unlike it's neighbours?

Could you do a survey of non mixed WHS with more than 1 category assigned.... Budapest is one such... And not because of Burial places! How many more? We can then use them to identify/decide valid reasons for having 2.

Author elsslots
Admin
#35 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 08:24 
Solivagant:
And Shakhrisabz.. Currently in Middle Eastern.. Unlike it's neighbours?

That was a mistake, it should have been Asian ("great cultural and political significance in medieval Central Asia." - similar to Bukhara/Samarkand)

Author elsslots
Admin
#36 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 08:44 
Solivagant:
Could you do a survey of non mixed WHS with more than 1 category assigned.... Budapest is one such... And not because of Burial places! How many more? We can then use them to identify/decide valid reasons for having 2.

Just as a reminder, we have also written on the Categories overview page: " Exceptions to a maximum of 2 categories have been made for WHS that span a range of criteria and for WHS that actually comprise a combination of 2 wholly different sites".

I've created a first dump of all Cultural WHS and the Categories they have been assigned: categoriesculturalwhs.pdf. The double (or sometimes triple!) ones are obvious, don't know if my SQL skills are up to it to filter the WHS with a single category out.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#37 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 08:54 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Thanks... A useful reference for doing T List.. Easier than using the "list by category" feature.

Not sure that burials/religious fits the "reason for 2" Criteria.
But I guess the 2 different periods for Budapest reflects the 2 different elements better than a single "urban continuity" would.
It's, a matter of getting back into the swing of the conventions we developed....

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#38 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 11:45 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Herewith Uzbekistan "Land of Mausolea, Rock Art .....and Silk road ruins"

Abdulkhan Bandi Dam – Structure Civic & Public Works
Ahsiket – Archaeological Site Near Eastern ***
Ak Astana-baba (mausoleum) - Burial & Religious Islamic (Justified by Dual aspect)
Ancient Pap – Archaeological Site Near Eastern ***
Ancient Termiz – Archaeological Site Near Eastern ***
Andijon – Urban Landscape Asian
Arab-Ata Mausoleum - Burial & Religious Islamic (Justified by Dual aspect)
Bahoutdin Architectural Complex - Burial & Religious Islamic (Justified by Dual aspect)
Boysun - Mixed/ Cult - Relict CL /Natural - Mountain
Chashma-Ayub Mausoleum - Burial & Religious Islamic (Justified by Dual aspect)
Chor-Bakr - Burial & Religious Islamic (Justified by Dual aspect)
Cold winter deserts of Turan - Desert (NB Mistake on WHS.org where it is listed as a Cultural site)
Complex of Sheikh Mukhtar-Vali (mausoleum) - Burial & Religious Islamic (Justified by Dual aspect)
Desert Castles of Ancient Khorezm - Military & Fortifications
Gissar Mountains - Mountains & Non Hominid fossils (Justified by dual locations & aspect)
Historic Center of Qoqon – Urban Landscape - Asian
Kanka - Archaeological Site Near Eastern ***
Khanbandi (dam) – Structure Civic & Public Works
Khazarasp – Archaeological Site Near Eastern ***
Minaret in Vobkent – Religious structure Islamic
Mir-Sayid Bakhrom Mausoleum - Burial & Religious Islamic (Justified by Dual aspect)
Poykent - Archaeology Nr Eastern ***
Rabati Malik Caravanserai - Structure Civic & public works
Sarmishsay Mixed Cult – Rock Art/ Natural - Desert
Shahruhiya - Archaeological Site Near Eastern ***
Shokhimardon- Forest
Silk Roads Sites in Uzbekistan – Human Activity Tranport & Trade
Silk Roads: Zarafshan-Karakum Corridor – Human Activity Tranpsort & Trade
Siypantosh Rock Paintings - Rock Art
Varakhsha - Archaeological Site Near Eastern ***
Zaamin Mountains - Mountain
Zarautsoy Rock Paintings - Rock Art

*** Have used "Near Eastern" as we have not really fully discussed differences between the Geographical lists for Urban and Archaeological categories

Am doing Uruguay and USA now,

Author elsslots
Admin
#39 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 12:58 
Solivagant:
Herewith Uzbekistan

Oh, thanks, what a list!

Author elsslots
Admin
#40 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 13:54 
I'll take on categorizing the TWHS of Mexico.

Author elsslots
Admin
#41 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 14:28 
Aire de protection de la flore et de la faune Cuatrociénegas - Natural landscape Fauna / Flora -> an aquarium in the Mexican desert
Chapultepec Woods, Hill and Castle - Seems still (too) broad, but I'd go for Palace
Church of Santa Prisca and its Surroundings - Religious Christian
Cuetzalan and its Historical, Cultural and Natural Surrounding - Mixed: Urban Latin-American and Natural landscape Forest (?? Not much about the natural aspect, it lies near a jungle)
Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo's Home-Study Museum - Structure Residence
El Arco del Tiempo del Río La Venta - Natural Karst
Great City of Chicomostoc-La Quemada - Archeological Pre-Columbian
Historic Town of Alamos - Urban landscape colonial (also a mining town, but not much emphasis on the mines)
Historic Town of San Sebastian del Oeste - Mixed: Urban landscape colonial (also a mining town, but not much emphasis on the mines) and ??? (hills and trees...)
Historical city of Izamal (Izamal, Mayan continuity in an Historical City) - Archeology Pre-Columbian & Urban Colonial
Historical Town The Royal of the Eleven Thousand Virgins of Cosala in Sinaloa - Urban landscape colonial (another mining town, the third already)
Huichol Route through the sacred sites to Huiricuta (Tatehuari Huajuye) - Religion Indigenous
Las Labradas, Sinalao archaeological site - Archeo Rock Art
Las Pozas, Xilitla - Structure Garden
Los Petenes-Ría Celestún - Natural Coastal
Pre-Hispanic City of Cantona - Archeo Pre-Columbian
Region Lacan-Tún - Usumacinta - Mixed: Forest & Archeo Pre-Columbian
Réserve de la biosphere Banco Chincorro - Mixed: Marine Coastal & shipwrecks!! (human activity transport and trade)
Ring of cenotes of Chicxulub Crater, Yucatan - Natural Eroded
Tecoaque - Archeo Pre-Columbian
Vallée des Cierges - Natural desert

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#42 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 14:52 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Herewith USA and Uruguay
Have copied e.g Ellis island and Isla de Flores to be the same as Apravasi Ghat and Valongo ...as all of them are about "migration". But is "Human Activity Transport and Trade" really good enough as a title.
Not really happy about using "Urban Landscape Latin American" for all urban centres in LA. I don't understand why some are "Colonial" and some are "Latin American" ... what is definition??

Perhaps we need at some time to look at the "population" of each category to assess
a. Their "coherance"
b. The Title
c. A fuller description!

United States of America
.Big Bend National Park - Diverse Ecossystems & Non Humanid fossils
Brooklyn Bridge – Transport and Trade
California Current Conservation Complex – Marine and Coastal
Central Park – Patk or Garden
Civil Rights Movement Sites - Memorials and Monuments
Dayton Aviation Sites -Transport and Trade
Early Chicago Skyscrapers – I don't really like the current definitions of any of the current Categories for this – Urban Planning seems closest!
Ellis Island – Human Activity Transport and Trade
Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks – Arch site pre Colombian
Marianas Trench Marine National Monument – Marine and Coastal
Marine Protected Areas of American Samoa - Marine and Coastal
Moravian Church Settlements - Urban Planning
Mount Vernon - CL Clearly Defined
Okefenokee National Wildlife Refuge – Rivers and Lakes
Pacific Remote Islands Marine National Monument – Marine and Coastal
Petrified Forest National Park - Non hominid fossils
Serpent Mound – Arch site Pre Colombian
Thomas Jefferson Buildings – Civic and Public Works
White Sands National Monument - Desert

Uruguay
Architecture Moderne du XX siècle de la Ville de Montevideo – Urban Landscape Latin American (Not very happy with this. Just because it is in L America!!!)
Chamangá: Rock Paintings Area – Rock Art
Insular area and bay of Colonia del Sacramento (extn) –Urban Landscape Latin American
Isla de Flores Cultural Landscape and its fluvio-marine context – Human Activity Transport and Trade
La Rambla (promenade maritime) de la Cité de Montevideo - Urban Planning
Quartier de Peñarol: la Vieille Ville historique et le paysage industriel ferroviaire – Factories and Industry / Urban landscape Latin American

Next for me - Ukraine and UAE

Author FredericM
Partaker
#43 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 15:48 
elsslots:
Ring of cenotes of Chicxulub Crater, Yucatan - Natural Eroded

Why not karst and caves for this one?

Author Astraftis
Partaker
#44 | Posted: 5 Nov 2021 20:23 | Edited by: Astraftis 
Setting the discussion about the categorisation system apart for a little, ecco l'Italia!

I could not help but pursue a kind of dual caegorisation. Anyway, I consider the first category to be the most salient one. I have also put some comments... It was originally tab-separated, I hope it is readable.

Archipelago of la Maddalena and Islands of Bocche di Bonifacio - Insular; Fauna - Different names in title and description, with and without Archipelago; Italian has "arcipelago" (no h)
Bradyseism in the Flegrea Area - Volcanic and thermal; Ancient Rome - Serapeum seems to be considered important
Cascata delle Marmore and Valnerina: Monastic sites and ancient hydrogeological reclamation works - Civic and public works; Rivers and lakes - Two and maybe three themes in one; not sure if cultural landscape
Cattolica Monastery in Stilo and Basilian-Byzantine complexes - Christian; Byzantine -
Centro Storico di Lucca - Military and Fortifications; Post-Medieval European - The walls are perhaps the most important part
Centro storico di Parma - Medieval European; Christian - Cathedral and baptistery are important pieces
Centro Storico di Pavia e Certosa - Medieval European; Christian - The Certosa is quite apart from the rest of the city, with its own character
Citadel of Alessandria - Military and Fortifications -
Fortress Town of Palmanova - Military and Fortifications; Post-Medieval European - Citté instead of "città" in description
Giardini Botanici Hanbury - Park or garden -
Island of Asinara - Insular -
Karstic caves in prehistoric Apulia - Karst landscapes and caves -
Lake Maggiore and Lake D'Orta lakelands - Clearly defined; Rivers and lakes -
Mothia and Lilibeo Island: The Phoenician-Punic Civilization in Italy - Phoenician; Maritime -
Orvieto - Medieval European -
Pelagos: The Cetacean Sanctuary - Fauna; Marine and coastal -
Ponds in the Bay of Oristano and the Sinis Peninsula island of Mal di Ventre - Rivers and lakes; Fauna - Do we need a category for wetlands? And of course, archaeological sites are also cited...
Romanesque Cathedrals in Puglia - Christian; Medieval Europe -
Salento and the Barocco Leccese - Post-Medieval Europe; Christian - Really lots of churches. We do not have categories with artistic orientations.
Sulcis Iglesiente - Mines - In a not really descript natural environment, so it counts as "Natural". It is, Germanly speaking, a kind of Tagebaufolgelandschaft (I love the word)
Taormina and Isola Bella - Ancient Greece -
The Aniene valley and Villa Gregoriana in Tivoli - Clearly defined; Rivers and lakes - A savage valley in the midst of the city remodelled as a park! Of course water is another fundamental element here
The city of Bergamo - Urban continuity - I'm not really sure here, it's the whole city concept
The Lower Palaeolithic Palaeosurfaces at Isernia-La Pineta and Notarchirico - Human evolution -
The Marble Basin of Carrara - Mines - Actually kind of impressive
The Murge of Altamura - Karst landscapes and caves; Non-hominid fossils - Fossils of every kind! "murge" is plural of "murgia" (a dialectal word for rocky places of some kind)
The Transhumance: The Royal Shepherd's Track - Continuing - My best bet for an actually intangible site
Via Appia 'Regina Viarum' - Ancient Rome - Please nominate this autoinclude... as an extension to Rome
Villas of the Papal Nobility - Residence; Post-Medieval Europe - The difference between Residence and Palace is blurry
Volterra: Historical City and Cultural Landscape - Urban continuity -
Massif du Mont-Blanc - Mountain; Glaciation -
Parco Nazionale della Sila - Sila, gran bosco d'Italia - Forest -
The cultural landscape of the Benedictine settlements in medieval Italy - Christian; Medieval Europe - Not sure if cultural landscape somehow, and then Relict or Continuing (for example, no more monks, but not abandoned)?
Les Alpes de la Méditerranée (Italy) - Mountain; Marine and coastal - Is this nomination serious?
The Cultural Landscape of Civita di Bagnoregio - Eroded; Relict - The upcoming nomination! It is literally falling away and has long been abandoned.
Evaporite karst and caves of Emilia Romagna Region - Karst landscapes and caves - But probably also Eroded, because there are also other geological formations than caves
Via Francigena in Italy - Continuing; Medieval Europe - Again, this is rather intangible
Art and Architecture in the Prehistory of Sardinia. The domus de janas. - Prehistoric; Burial - Lots of burials!
Eocene Marine Biodiversity of the Alpone Valley - Non-hominid fossils -

Well, that was a nice brush up and it probably contributed to chasing away a headache! I see that islets are quite popular, and historical city centres evergreen.I'd like to know how many churches there are in Italy.

OK, I might try to continue with some of our neighbours, of course leaving Austria, Switzerland, France and Malta to others :-) So, am I left with Slovenia, Croatia, Albania (already taken?), Greece, Tunisia and Lybia (stretching the concept of neighbour a bit)?

Author elsslots
Admin
#45 | Posted: 6 Nov 2021 01:10 
FredericM:
elsslots:
Ring of cenotes of Chicxulub Crater, Yucatan - Natural Eroded

Why not karst and caves for this one?

The significance of the meteorite impact here and the geomorphology that resulted from it, is prominent in the description of the future OUV. And it appears it will only be nominated on 1 criterion (the Justification of Outstanding Universal Value is already quite good for a TWHS).

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