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Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#16 | Posted: 19 Jan 2016 07:59 
I just want to say thank you for all the hard work going into this. Natural sites and geological time periods are well outside my knowledge range so I can't help out much. It is a really great resource to have and improves the site, so thanks

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#17 | Posted: 27 Jan 2018 13:42 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I notice that there are a few WHS which have been assigned to a Time Line period but whose "descriptions" lack a date to justify/explain.
It would seem worthwhile to try to provide more specific info where possible! I make a start below starting from the 20th C and working back. I have tried always to find at least 1 specific year date to justify the assignment.

20th C
Bahai Holy Places - Precise location for tomb determined in 1891... "The remains of the Báb were buried on March 21, 1909 in a six-room mausoleum made of local stone. In a separate room, the remains of `Abdu'l-Bahá were buried in November 1921. In 1929 three rooms were added to the mausoleum, and in 1949 the first threshold stone of the superstructure was laid by Shoghi Effendi. The construction was completed over the mausoleum in 1953" (Wiki)

19th C
Vienna - The Ring "was constructed after the dismantling of the city walls in the mid-19th century. From the 1860s to 1890s, many large public buildings were erected along the Ring Road in an eclectic historicist style, sometimes called Ringstraßenstil ("Ring Road style")," (Wiki)

First Coffee Plantations - "Coffee production was established in the island of Saint-Domingue (Hispaniola) by French settlers in the 18th century. The uprisings from 1790 onwards, culminating in the establishment of the independent state of Haiti in 1804, resulted in the flight of French plantation owners, accompanied by many of their African slaves, to the neighbouring island of Cuba, then under Spanish rule. They were granted lands in the south-eastern part of the island in the foothills of the Sierra Maestra, at that time largely not settled and eminently suitable for coffee growing" (AB)

18thC
Vienna - Baroque e.g Lower Belvedere from 1712, Upper Belvedere 1717-1723. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Baroque_architecture_in_Vienna

Lednice-Valtice - Straddled 17th-19th Centuries. "The realization of this grandiose design began in the 17th centurv with the creation of avenues connecting Valtice with other parts of the estate. lt continued throughout the 18th centurv with the evolution of a framework of avenues and paths providing vistas and rides, imposing order on nature in the manner of the Renaissance artists and architects. The early years of the 19th century saw the application by Duke Jan Josef 1 of the English concept of the designed park" (AB)

City of Bath For its Georgian buildings and heyday as a fashionable spa town - "The Assembly Rooms, built in 1771 by John Wood, Jr. and the Pump Room from 1793 to 1799 by Palmer in accordance with the plans Thomas Baldwin) harmonize with the grandiose proportions Assembly built of of monumental ensembles such as Queen Square (1729) and the -Royal Circus (1754), both works of John Wood Sr.; and especially, the Royal Crescent, an extensive row of dwellings in a half-circle formation built from 1767 to 1776 by John Wood" (AB)

Summer Palace "During the reigns of the Qing Emperors Kangxi and Qianlong (1663-1795) several imperial gardens were created around Beijing, the last of them being the Summer Palace, based on the Hill of Longevity and Kunming Lake in the north-western suburbs of the city.... Between 1750 and 1764 Emperor Qianlong created the Garden of Clear Ripples, extending the area of the lake" (AB)

Diamantina - "The town of Diamantina .... developed in the 18th century.......the discovery in 1720 of an unsuspected source of wealth, diamonds.....(When) the Portuguese Crown discovered the existence of this source of wealth in 1731, it set up a new body to administer the region, the Demarcação Diamantina.... Two sets of 18th century plans show a layout of winding and uneven streets which have changed little since that time." (AB)

Enough for now!!!

Author elsslots
Admin
#18 | Posted: 27 Jan 2018 23:30 
Thanks, Solivagant. I've added the ones above

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#19 | Posted: 28 Jan 2018 07:32 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Suggested Timeline description updates for 17th, 16th and 15th centuries to provide firmer "date information"

17th C
Brimstone Hill Fortress
"Cannon were first mounted on Brimstone Hill in 1689 during the Nine Years' War, ....when the French used them to capture the English Fort Charles. The English, .....used the same tactic to recapture the fort a year later. From then on, the English used the hill as a fortress, mounting 24-pound cannon, taking advantage of its 972 foot height" (Wiki)

Sao Luis
"As early as 1615, when the French had been driven out, the Chief Engineer of the State of Brazil,......(drew) up plans for new defences of the liberated town. In addition, he prepared an urban plan, .... as the guide to its expansion and development. It was based on geometric regularity ..... in contrast to the medieval layout of narrow winding streets applied by the Portuguese in Rio de Janeiro, Recife, and Olinda. It was to serve as the basis for the expansion ....By the end of the 17th century Sâo Luis bad a population of some ten thousand," (AB)

Himeji jo
"In 1600, Tokugawa Ieyasu awarded the castle to Ikeda Terumasa ...... and Ikeda completely rebuilt the castle from 1601 to 1609, expanding it into a large castle complex. Several buildings were later added to the castle complex by Honda Tadamasa from 1617 to 1618. For over 400 years, Himeji Castle has remained intact," (Wiki)

16th C
Timbuktu
"The market city of Timbuktu reached its apex under the reign of the Askia (1493-1591)., Three essential monuments ..... fortunately still stand as testimony to the grandeur of Timbuktu. ...... The mosque of Djingareyber was built by the sultan Kankan Moussa after his return in 1325 from a pilgrimage to Mecca. Between 1570 and 1583 the Qadi of Timbuktu, Imam Al Aqib, had it reconstructed and enlarged,... (The) mosque of Sankore, built during the Mandingue period, was restored ..... between 1578 and 1582.... The mosque of Sidi Yahia, south of the mosque of Sankore, was probably built around 1400...... The sanctuary was restored in 1577-1578..." (AB)

Nezvizh
"In 1582 Mikołaj Krzysztof "Sierotka" Radziwiłł ... started the construction of an imposing square three-storey "château". Although the works were based on a pre-existing structure of a medieval castle, the former fortifications were entirely turned into a renaissance-baroque house. Construction was completed by 1604,.... The most important structure .....is the Corpus Christi Church (1587 to 1603), " (Wiki)

Banska Stiavnica
MOVE FROM 16th C to 15th????
"The 15th C saw the beginning of a period of immense prosperity for the area: defences were built round the town, the parish church was rebuilt and fortified, and many new residences were built....... in the 16th century they were either converted into Renaissance "palaces" or comnbined to forrn rows or terraces. Trinity Square, at the heart of the town, was a planned development of this period. However, a slow decline began at the end of the 15th century"" (AB)

Ubeda and Baiza
"The most important development takes place from the mid 15th to the 16th century.... The most important historic buildings in Ubeda include:
The Palace of Francisco de los Cobos... (1531), The funerary chapel of El Salvador del Mundo ..(1532-53); The Palace of Vázquez de Molina (1546), The Hospital Honrados Viejos (1548). The Palace of the Déan Ortega (1550)" (AB)

15th C
Medici Villas
"The villas built by the Medici, from the 15th to the 17th centuries.... (E.g) The Villa di Cafaggiolo.... is an ancient Medici family property acquired in the 14th century..... In 1451, Cosimo the Elder asked the architect Michelozzo to restructure it and make it grander while also transforming it into a summer residence with a garden.... Construction of the Villa Medici in Fiesole was started in 1458 by Michelozzo. ,,, Villa di Poggio a Caiano .... Guiliano da Sangallo was commissioned to carry out the work that started in 1479" (AB)

Cidade Velha
"The island of Santiago was discovered around 1460 and claimed for the Crown of Portugal. There was no human presence on the island..... As early as 1466 it was granted a royal charter entitling its inhabitants to practise the slave trade.... Ribeira Grande was the first European town to be built in the tropics, from the end of the 15th century onwards... Construction of the first defensive structures, the town hall, and the first church began at the end of the 15th century" (AB)

Corfu
" The fortifications of Corfu were designed by renowned Venetian engineers, and they were used for four centuries to defend the maritime trading interests of the Republic of Venice against the Ottoman Empire.. Venice took .... control of Corfu in ..1386... In the early 15th century activity concentrated on the medieval town, with the development of harbour facilities (docks, quays and arsenals) and continued with the renovation of the defense works" (AB)

Author elsslots
Admin
#20 | Posted: 4 Jul 2018 00:13 | Edited by: elsslots 
Maybe you can help with finding missing timelines for the new WHS:

Al-Ahsa Oasis
Aasivissuit-Nipisat
Chaîne des Puys
Fanjingshan
Pimachiowin Aki
Tehuacán-Cuicatlán Valley (natural component)

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#21 | Posted: 4 Jul 2018 03:13 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
Tehuacán-Cuicatlán Valley (natural component)

The "Natural" OUV derives from the specialised arid vegetation. So - when did that emerge/develop in the area?
Searches on "Tehuacan Formation" (the geological formation of the area) return a reasonable number of academic papers on the matter.
This seems to be the best quote for the "non specialist"!! So MIOCENE (we don't differentiate into middle etc)
"Palynological assemblages from the Tehuacán Formation (TF), geochronologically dated as Middle Miocene (15.6 ± 0.4 Ma), provide evidence of a highly diverse flora that, at the generic level, is similar to the extant flora in the Tehuacán Valley. We propose that, during Miocene times, plant communities may have been formed of similar botanical elements to those seen today in the region, with some taxa adapted to semiarid conditions."
From https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262576169_Palynological_Evidence_for_Middle_ Miocene_Vegetation_in_the_Tehuacan_Formation_of_Puebla_Mexico

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#22 | Posted: 4 Jul 2018 03:48 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
Aasivissuit-Nipisat

The "answer" is somewhere within the Nomination File!!
There is a need to differentiate between the times of arrival of humans in the general area and their use of the area actually inscribed which was determined by the ebb and flow of the glacial margins and the uplift of land following the end of the last Ice Age. It would seem irrational to suggest a date when humans arrived if the inscribed area wasn't actually available for use!!!
My PDF copy of the Nom File seems to be "protected" (will change when its available on the UNESCO Web site) so I can't cut and paste but the main page is Page 28 (PDF page 30). A few quotes
"It was in this landscape that the first pioneers, the Saqqaq people, hunted around 5000 years ago"
"Around 3500 years ago the climate cooled and the ice advanced to its current position"
(Landrise) "reached its present level around 3000 years ago"
"First the Saqqaq (2500 - 700 BC), then the Greenlandic Dorset (800 BC - to 1 AD) and in the 13th to 15th centuries the Thule culture........and finally in the first part of the 18th C colonists from Denmark-Norway.. established colonies on Nipisat close to the spot where the Saqqaq had settled 4000 years before"
"There is no genetic link between the Saqqaq and today's Inuit"
"Nipisat is the key site in for the Saqqaq culture ... radiocarbon dates indicate occupation from 2200BC until 700BC perhaps 500 BC"
So???? A site with OUV which straddles from c4000 years ago until present and with different cultures albeit that they lived in the same ecological niche!
I would suggest not earlier than "3000 years ago" when the land was much as now and the middle of the Saqqaq occupation?? Perhaps 2nd millenium BC??

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#23 | Posted: 4 Jul 2018 04:35 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
Chaîne des Puys

"The attributes of the site advanced in support of criterion (viii) are: the Plateau des Dômes, remnant of the ancient Hercynian mountain chain; the 30-km-long Limagne fault escarpment as the expression of continental break-up, subsidence and sedimentation which took place between 37 and 25 Ma (million years ago);" (AB Eval)
See here for Liimagne Fault - http://www.chainedespuys-limagnefault.com/the-site/presentation/

A problem is that Wiki says of the Chaine -
"The chain began to form approximately 95, 000 years ago, and the volcanic activity that formed the range stopped only about 10,000 years ago.[1] The majority of the cones were formed by Strombolian eruptions, and these cones usually have well-defined summit craters. Some have nested craters, and others show broken rims where lava poured through"

So we have completely different periods for the Limagne Fault and the Chaine des Puys - as the link above says the fault was a forerunner to the volcanism of the Chaine (by a VERY long way!). This would seem to help explain the debates around the site's inscription. The experts said that its "volcanism" wasn't that special . So France went off and proposed it primarily for its Limagne fault and associated aspects re continental break up etc etc. Completely changed the Criterion and comparative analysis etc and then SLIGHTLY changed the name by adding the "Fault" name but still left in the Puys which, in reality are not now part of the OUV WHATSOEVER!!!! No wonder IUCN and experts were fed up and annoyed (The AB mentions "it remains a proposal where there are greatly divergent, and to some extent polarized opinions, amongst the relevant expert and scientific community")

So - which geological period was "37 - 25 my ago"?? It is certainly "Tertiary" but which sub period? OLIGOCENE seems to best fit and I have found articles on the rifting which refer to that period (Also Wiki - "The Oligocene is a geologic epoch of the Paleogene Period and extends from about 33.9 million to 23 million years before the present")

Author elsslots
Admin
#24 | Posted: 4 Jul 2018 11:06 | Edited by: elsslots 
Solivagant:
So???? A site with OUV which straddles from c4000 years ago until present and with different cultures albeit that they lived in the same ecological niche!
I would suggest not earlier than "3000 years ago" when the land was much as now and the middle of the Saqqaq occupation?? Perhaps 2nd millenium BC??

The AB ev (based on the same sources of course but giving slightly different numbers) says: The human history of this cultural landscape spans 4200 years. .... Three major migrations of Paleo-Inuit and Inuit peoples came to Greenland from present-day Canada: Saqqaq (2500-700 BC),
-> I'd be inclined to go for the 3rd millennium BC (4200-2018 = 2182 BC; arrival Saqqaq 2500 BC (they wouldn't arrive in numbers if it was inhabitable)

P.S. added your other 2 suggestions

Author elsslots
Admin
#25 | Posted: 4 Jul 2018 12:59 | Edited by: elsslots 
Al-Ahsa Oasis is particularly hard I find, as because of the "Not inscribe" recommendation the AB evaluation has no clear message.

It has archaeological sites:
"continued human settlement in the Gulf region from the Neolithic to the present"

It has historical buildings:
Jawatha Mosque ( c. 629 AD)
And: Al-Ahsa reached its maximum integration and size during the Islamic period (from 661 to the 10th century CE).

It has a lot of palm trees:
No indication given

I'm tempted to declare it 7th century, plus neolithic in the 'extra' category

P.S.: have to alter the locations as well, there are 12

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#26 | Posted: 4 Jul 2018 13:02 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
Pimachiowin Aki

Mixed site - therefore 2 different periods -
CULTURAL VALUES
The Site Web site mentions no dates but does show "Ancient pictographs dating back thousand of years can be found on rock faces and along shorelines throughout the Pimachiowin Aka area"
The AB states - "Ancient and contemporary livelihood sites, habitations and processing sites, travel routes, named places, trap lines, widely dispersed across the landscape, while being sacred and ceremonial sites, reflect the way they, and their Indigenous ancestors, have made use of this and adjacent landscapes for over 7,000 years". so 5th Millenium BC??

NATURAL VALUES
The Canadian Shield of which this is a part was totally glaciated in the last period. Everything "natural" now present in the inscribed Ecosystem must have "arrived" since then? So HOLOCENE

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#27 | Posted: 4 Jul 2018 13:36 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
Fanjingshan

IUCN had problems with the nomination but accepted Criterion x - biodiversity. The AB states-
"The nomination dossier puts much emphasis on Fanjingshan being an island of metamorphic rock in a sea of karst, and notes that it is considered to be the first place in Southwest China to emerge from the sea. It is still home to many ancient and relict plant and animal species which originated in the Tertiary period, between 65 million and 2 million years ago, and it is stated that 75% of its flora "behaves as if it were on an island". The nominated property's isolation and changing climatic conditions have led to a high degree of endemism"
But between "65 million and 2 million yrs ago" is a VERY long period!!!

The (now removed) UNESCO T LIst description is comprehensive (accessed via Way back machine -
https://web.archive.org/web/20150513111239/https://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5 988/

"Fanjingshan is the typical representative of mountain ecosystems in mid-subtropical humid zone. It shows the significant ecological process since Holocene and Quaternary ice age"
"Fanjingshan is an outstanding representative of biological and ecological evolutionary processes in the eastern deciduous forest biogeographic province."
"The comparison of Holocene vegetation sporopollen record in Jiulong Pool and Lancha Peak with the vegetations of above two sites and Hunxiangping, reflects the vegetation evolution process in late Holocene with landform and climate change."
"The ancient and relic plants and sporopollen indicate that the area has been montane landform at least since the Miocene epoch" ( Miocene = 23.03 to 5.333 mybp)
Not clear yet whether to go back to earliest period - Miocene or stick with the Holocene!! I probably favour the former as having created the "basis" for endemism etc etc

Author elsslots
Admin
#28 | Posted: 13 Jul 2019 05:17 
I'd like to make a start with dating the 2019 natural WHS (the cultural I have done already and are mostly straightforward).

The French Austral Lands:
- The Kerguelen Islands started to appear 35 million years ago (wiki)
- Penguins were already around on the earth 50 million years ago
So go for Eocene? Nearby Heard & McDonald islands we also have at that.

Author elsslots
Admin
#29 | Posted: 13 Jul 2019 05:23 
Hyrcanian Forests has this in its IUCN ev, so Eocene as well?
The nominated property contains Arcto-Tertiary relicts
from broad-leaved forests that 25-50 million years ago
covered most parts of the Northern Temperate Zone.

Author elsslots
Admin
#30 | Posted: 13 Jul 2019 05:24 
Vatnajokull we already had at a very young 2500 years.

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