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Author Solivagant
Partaker
#421 | Posted: 21 Aug 2019 07:45 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Following the review of "Les "coules" de Petite Valachie" by Lisu Marian I note that this T List site is not well described in the UNESCO Web site and that we have indicated that it only has 1 (un-named) location - which we don't have a map entry for!!!!

I have tried to identify both the coordinates of the locations reviewed by Lisu, together with a few more, as it would appear that this would be a multi-location nomination. This Web site shows the locations of some 27 Cula. It divides them into 3 categories - Functional, Collapsed and ruined. It also shows which are "open" rather than "private".

We cannot of course know which of these Romania might choose to nominate (if ever!!) - so I have chosen 5 - the 2 reviewed by Lisu (1 of which is said to be "private") plus 3 others which are both Functional and Open!
Cula Greceanu, Maldaresti 45.118508, 24.002927
Cula Duca, Maldaresti 45.119750, 24.002331
Cula Racovita, Mioveni 44.969998, 24.961692
Cula Gheorghe Tătărescu, Curtișoara 45.106991, 23.355962
Cula Cuțui, Broșteni 44.761057, 22.995263

PS ELS - Have you looked at my post above of 3 days ago which identifies the correct location for the "City of Azúa de Compostela".which gave Zoe some problems identifying/reaching and for which we had incorrect coordinates!!!

Author Zoe
Partaker
#422 | Posted: 21 Aug 2019 08:56 
Oh, thanks for confirming it. I saw the pictures via Google map and figured no way ot could be that but alas it really is. Missed out on nothing. Ruins in the Dom Republic are in horrible state.

Author elsslots
Admin
#423 | Posted: 21 Aug 2019 13:29 
Solivagant:
PS ELS - Have you looked at my post above of 3 days ago which identifies the correct location for the "City of Azúa de Compostela".which gave Zoe some problems identifying/reaching and for which we had incorrect coordinates!!!

Yeah I saw it. Have been busy... Will add it tonight and the Romanian ones too

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#424 | Posted: 21 Aug 2019 14:31 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
Will add it tonight and the Romanian ones too

No rush to do them - it is just nice to know that they have been "seen" - posts get overtaken and disappear very quickly down the "page"!!

Author Zoe
Partaker
#425 | Posted: 21 Aug 2019 21:39 
I've updated the review.
Also for Archaeological and Historical National Park of Pueblo Viejo, La Vega there may be more than one location but it should definitely point to the Fortaleza de la Concepción slightly east of the current marker.

Author Walter
Partaker
#426 | Posted: 22 Aug 2019 06:48 
I came back from a trip in Central Asia (reviews are coming in the next days).
I noticed a mistake in the tentative list for the "Silk Roads Sites in Kyrgyzstan", more specifically for the Sites of the southern Issyk Kul (componant n°2).
There are in fact three sites:
Tosor, whose coordonate are mentionned in the file and correct on our map
Barskoon, whose coordonate are missing: according to my visit, the coordonate are: 42.092607, 77.594564
Khan Dobo, whose coordonate are missing: according to my visit, the coordonate are: 42.067042, 76.975078

Author elsslots
Admin
#427 | Posted: 22 Aug 2019 09:55 
Walter:
Barskoon, whose coordonate are missing: according to my visit, the coordonate are: 42.092607, 77.594564
Khan Dobo, whose coordonate are missing: according to my visit, the coordonate are: 42.067042, 76.975078

Thanks! I have added them (they were there already but without coordinates)

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#428 | Posted: 4 Sep 2019 16:07 | Edited by: Solivagant 
As Watkinstravel has identified in his review of Chalchuapa posted today, that T List site consists of at least 3 separate ruins ("There are 3 separate zones in town of differing historical periods").
For accuracy/completeness it seems worth including all 3 in our location details and map which currently only has 1 (and that not perfectly located)..
The UNESCO entry states - "Three of these groups are currently protected, including the two Late Preclassic (400 BC - 200 AD) of El Trapiche and Casa Blanca, and the Classic to Early Postclassic Tazumal group (200 - 1200 AD)." It also states that "Chalchuapa is considered to have been an outstanding center of Late Preclassic times." thus indicating the "significance" of El Trapiche and Casa Blanca ( but not of course whether there is anything worth seeing there!!!)
There are other sites nearby - Wiki refers to "five ceremonial centers: Tazumal, Pampe, Trapiche, Casa Blanca, and Las Victorias"
I suggest we limit ourselves to the 3 mentioned in the UNESCO entry and also ignore the comment made there that "There exists the potential to combine some natural features with this property, such as the small volcanic Lake Cuscachapa."
Tazumal and Casa Blanca are marked on Wiki (and are 1.7kms apart by road) but Trapiche doesn't seem to be -apart from a "Water Park" (with a nice swimming pool which is very visible on Google Satellite view!) of the same name. This article however has a sketch map of the area showing the archaeological sites (together with the comment - "El Trapiche Mound Group, located one kilometer northeast of Chalchuapa") and I have used that to locate it (NE of Chalchuapa near the eponymous Park!) with the help of Google satellite view.
So -
Chalchuapa -
El Tazumel 13.979529, -89.674381
Casa Blanca 13.989436, -89.672490
El Trapiche 13.995796, -89.669765

PS This link taken from the Web site of the Finca San Antonio, situated across the road from the Water Park, shows the site of El Trapiche with photos of people climbing the pyramid (whose shape and wooded location confirm the accuracy of the selected coordinates when compared with Google satellite view). It is implied (but not made clear) that entrance is only via the Finca (with payment to them) and the coordinates for the site could certainly be inside the Finca's boundaries

Author elsslots
Admin
#429 | Posted: 5 Sep 2019 11:21 
Solivagant:
So -
Chalchuapa -
El Tazumel 13.979529, -89.674381
Casa Blanca 13.989436, -89.672490
El Trapiche 13.995796, -89.669765

Added, thanks again!

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#430 | Posted: Yesterday 03:48 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Primošten Vineyards
Philipp Peterer's review of this T List site published today led me to investigate this site a bit further.
I think we have it slightly incorrectly positioned on our map. (by 1 + km) - That is not to say that Philip went to the "wrong place" by the way!! I don't know how he decided on his chosen location next to the main Trogir-Sibenik road - my suggested location is also viewable from that road -but possibly also more accessible too? I don't know how the current coordinates were arrived at - they are around 2.2kms S of Primosten. The UNESCO location of "N43 33 011 E015 38 431" is in the sea off the Croatian coast west of Primosten!! ( 43.550306, 15.634531 )

The UNESCO web site states "The site of Bucavac Veliki is located 3km south of the town of Primošten"
It also appears that, despite the lengthy history of wine making in the area as described in the UNESCO entry, the main landscape element of small rectangular fields was created relatively recently - "A decision was brought in 1947 to give municipal land in the Bucavac area to the inhabitants of the Primošten area. The entire space was first geodetically measured and the names of the future owners were drawn in the village school in Primošten. Each participant in the drawing could get 1000 square meters of the then bare and rocky terrain. The clearing and reparation of soil and planting of wine grapes lasted ten years or so and there were families who planted a few thousand vine plants of the Croatian indigenous sort Babić which produces best quality wines precisely in the Primošten region"
Thus "What significantly singles out the Bucavac Veliki site from the context of cleared bordered fields is precisely the manner of lotting the surface that is cleared, namely, the creation of a network of very small lots (locally called vlačica)......This unique symmetrical compartmentalised type of lotting, which leaves the impression of a stone lace structure "
And "Rows of these small soil lots rising vertically from the sea shore are locally called tirades and are positioned in a straight line. Rows of thus positioned tirades make up a rectangular network of lots successively adapted to the coastal line of the locality. Local unpaved paths lead to the lots."

It is important therefore specifically to locate "Bucavac Veliki" on our map within the wider Primošten area which contains multiple vineyards cleared from the rocky landscape! Unfortunately the location is not referred to within Google maps but there are a number of Web sites selling Croatian wine which refer specifically to "Bucavac". This one describes them as "Bucavac - near marina kremik" (which also coincides with the UNESCO reference to the fields rising from the "sea shore") and this one has a number of photos which allow a pretty accurate positioning - indeed just south of the rather ugly modern marina at Kremik (which is often not shown when older photos are used!!) The photos and Google satellite view do perhaps indicate that these vineyards ARE slightly more rectangular and smaller than those situated elsewhere in the area. It would also appear that the fields should be accessible from the Kremik car park or even from the tracks beyond it either along the coast or inland? There are also the Bucavac wine tasting "opportunities"

So - I suggest the location as 43.568454, 15.944681 (3.3kms by footpath from Primosten)

Not that this minor "relocation" would seem to alter the conclusion that this site doesn't justify inscription. Indeed it seems to be a revamp of Stari Grad along the coast, which also majored on small accurately divided fields cleared of stones which then formed walls - albeit from much longer ago!

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 TWHS Maps - The data

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