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TWHS Maps - The data

 
 
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Author Zoe
Partaker
#406 | Posted: 23 Jul 2019 23:28 
All right maaaaybe but driving there on a hunch? No thanks. I tried the place on our map because I was driving up north anyway but the Hacienda would be the opposite way. You should keep in mind that tourists here are always exposed to the boys in blue extorting for money for random made up traffic infractions so I would not want to drive the extra few hours.

Also the northern dot for Primeros Ingenios Coloniales Azucareros de América is pointing at a baseball field. I can confirm the southern is correct though but technically should be two spots. Google map marks it as the Boca De Nigua Sugar Mill and Ruinas del ingenio Diego Caballero. Sorry I can't come up with coordinates at the moment.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#407 | Posted: 24 Jul 2019 02:49 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zoe:
I tried the place on our map because I was driving up north anyway but the Hacienda would be the opposite way

Obviously if you have already tried and "moved on" then you wouldn't go back - but the Hacienda Benoit is only 8.3 kms by road in a generally eastern direction from the current "blue spot".
I note that the blue dot has been located close to the "Carretera Jacagua" and presume that was why it was chosen by whoever tried to determine the coordinates for us (not me!!). About 2.5kms away along this road is the "Rio Jacagua". It might seem probable that the ruins would be along the river but I have found a web site for a community group which is trying to improve the condition of the Rio Jacagua and it describes a walk along the river without ANY mention of the ruins! (The Hacienda Benoit is a bit further West still and not really "alongside" the Rio Jacagua) I have sent them an e-mail to see if they can help!

Zoe:
Also the northern dot for Primeros Ingenios Coloniales Azucareros de América is pointing at a baseball field.

3 of the 4 "dots" for this T List site are slightly off. In fact the "Ancient Big House of Palavé" is only 2.6 kms away from the Baseball field!! Whoever chose the coordinates obviously homed in on the word "Palavé"! The southern 2 spots are in fact meant to be the 2 southern sugar mills you mention but one of them (the one at the "Playita") is misplaced

ELS - here are my suggested coordinates and titles for the "Primeros Ingenios Coloniales Azucareros de América" (currently all 4 locations have the same name which is a bit unhelpful!). All 4 sites/buildings are identified precisely on Google Maps and I have checked them using "Satellite view".
Boca De Nigua Sugar Mill 18.372823, -70.060158
The Ancient Big House of Palavé 18.479918, -70.047354
The Ancient Diego Caballero Sugar Mill 18.366534, -70.060232
The Sugar Mill of Engombe 18.448440, -70.001029

Author Zoe
Partaker
#408 | Posted: 26 Jul 2019 17:10 | Edited by: Zoe 
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
So the Grenadines Island Group has a review but then somehow it's not showing. Also the dots from the V&G main map do not correspond to the ones on the island group page. Additionally the description only lists about a specific places yet there seem to be more mentioned throughout the text such as Bequia.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#409 | Posted: 27 Jul 2019 03:28 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zoe:
So the Grenadines Island Group has a review but then somehow it's not showing. Also the dots from the V&G main map do not correspond to the ones on the island group page. Additionally the description only lists about a specific places yet there seem to be more mentioned throughout the text such as Bequia.

The T List entry covers 2 countries as a potential transboundary nomination - and we don't have these correctly represented within our data
a. Grenadines - St VINCENT.
Comprises 13 locations on UNESCO and on worldheritagesite.org
We have 13 correct dots. Bequia is one of those with a dot
The M Novins review shows on my screen

b. Grenadines - GRANADA
Comprises 11 locations on UNESCO - and on a PART OF worldheritagesite.org - i.e on the full T List. BUT - we have the 13 dots for the St Vincent locations showing on our map for the Granada T List entry itself. This seems to have happened because the entries for Grenadines Granada (whether from the Full list or from the Granada country list) point to Grenadines St Vincent . Try it!!!

We must have the full data for the Granada Grenadines T List site with its 11 locations since they appear correctly on the Granada country map - BUT each of them also takes us back to the St Vincent entry

Author elsslots
Admin
#410 | Posted: 28 Jul 2019 05:59 
Zoe:
So the Grenadines Island Group has a review but then somehow it's not showing

It does for me although it is very short, it's by Michael Novins: https://www.worldheritagesite.org/tentative/Grenadines+Island+Group#userreview_14348

Author elsslots
Admin
#411 | Posted: 28 Jul 2019 06:02 
Solivagant:
BUT each of them also takes us back to the St Vincent entry

That was because they have the same name, I have added (Grenada) behind its name as to distinguish between the two. Should be showing different things now.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#412 | Posted: 28 Jul 2019 10:37 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Coordinates for Jacagua - Villa of Santiago

Further to the earlier conversation. I have followed up a number of possible contacts arising from Newspaper articles in the Dominican Republic press which are available on the Web, and have been granted the courtesy of a reply from a senor who is President of the Dominican Republic ICOMOS organisation.

He has attempted to explain to me where the site is located but apparently is not expert in using Google maps or in determining coordinates!! Thus I am told information which is useful if one is there but not so good if one is not!! "en este punto se ve claramente a la derecha el pico Diego de Ocampo" ("at this point you can clearly see the Diego de Ocampo peak on the right"). He has replied to me twice now so i think I just have to accept what I have!!!

The following aspects are absolutely clear
a. Our currently identified coordinates are incorrect by some distance (at least 6kms straight line)
b. The "Hacienda Benoit" identified on Google maps (and which I earlier proposed) is also incorrect by about 2.5kms!
c. The location is a relatively short distance past the area called "Tres Cruces" which is identified in Google maps
d. The location IS on private land owned by the Benoit family and requires their support to reach. He has provided me with their telephone number and names. Apparently they have been subject to attacks and are wary of unexpected strangers.

His 2 descriptions were
a. "hacia el norte. Se pasarán Obras Públicas, el liceo Mélida Giralt y Las Tres Cruces de Jacagua. Se sigue recto por un buen trecho hasta encontrar un cruce con una bifurcación a mano derecha. Se seguirá derecho y al doblar una curva se estará frente a la propiedad de los Benoit."
("Go northward past the Public Works Dept, the Mélida Giralt High School and Las Tres Cruces de Jacagua. Continue straight for a long distance until you find a junction with a fork on the right hand side. You will continue straight and when you reach a curve you will face the Benoit property.")
b. "le diré que después de pasar Las Tres Cruces de Jacagua, cruce que verá a mano derecha, tiene que seguir por la carretera por la que va, sin desviarse. El próximo cruce que verá será a la derecha (en este punto se ve claramente a la derecha el pico Diego de Ocampo), pero también deberá seguir recto. Un poco más adelante habrá una curva, que corre junto a la propiedad de los Benoit y ya verá la puerta de entrada."
("after passing Las Tres Cruces de Jacagua, you will see a crossorads on your right hand side, you have to continue along the road you are going through, without turning off. The next crossing you will see will be on the right (at this point you can clearly see the Diego de Ocampo peak on the right), but you must also continue straight. A little further on there will be a curve, which runs next to the Benoit property and you will see the entrance door")

Neither of these descriptions has enabled me to determine a location by following them on Google Maps. We also know that the ruins are set among unkempt land with no public entrance/parking etc and are not likely to be visible from the satellite view ("su estado es lamentable. La maleza las arropa. Por eso en ICOMOS las consideramos monumento en peligro"). However - c 600 m past Tres Cruces the road crosses the Rio Jacagua - the ruins are going to be fairly close to this point.

ELS I would propose that we use the coordinates for where the road crosses this river and I will write a short review (Can you avoid publishing it on the main page???) with the above details and the Names/Tel numbers of the Benoits. Anyone who really wants to find this T List site ought then to be able to do so from all that info!!!

Author elsslots
Admin
#413 | Posted: 28 Jul 2019 11:09 | Edited by: elsslots 
Solivagant:
ELS I would propose that we use the coordinates for where the road crosses this river and I will write a short review (Can you avoid publishing it on the main page???) with the above details and the Names/Tel numbers of the Benoits. Anyone who really wants to find this T List site ought then to be able to do so from all that info!!!

Thanks for all the research! Yes you can do so, I will pick a coordinate and be sure your info will be posted on the site page alone.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#414 | Posted: 28 Jul 2019 11:29 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
I will pick a coordinate

These are the coordinates to use for Jacagua 19.507676, -70.706868

Author elsslots
Admin
#415 | Posted: 28 Jul 2019 11:54 
Solivagant:
These are the coordinates to use for Jacagua 19.507676, -70.706868

Done!

Author elsslots
Admin
#416 | Posted: 7 Aug 2019 11:06 | Edited by: elsslots 
I could use some help identifying locations for some of the new Peruvian TWHS.
I've got the single ones, but the serial sites are sometimes shown in a different geolocation format, such as:
- Rural temples of Cusco
- Cultural Landscape of the Sondondo Valley
- and if you're really bored Wineries and Vineyards for traditional Pisco Production

Author hubert
Partaker
#417 | Posted: 7 Aug 2019 13:33 
Rural Temples of Cusco

San Salvador de Oropesa -13.59365 -71.76352
San Pedro de Andahuaylillas -13.67463 -71.67799
San Juan Bautista de Huaro -13.69146 -71.64099
Capilla Virgen Purificada de Canincunca -13.68746 -71.63546
San Juan Bautista de Ccatcca -13.60455 -71.56315
San Pablo Apóstol de Ocongate -13.62656 -71.38800
San Francisco de Asís de Marcapata -13.59140 -70.97604
Virgen Inmaculada de Checacupe -14.02538 -71.45323
San Martín Obispo de Tours de Huarocondo -13.41511 -72.20811
San Jerónimo de Colquepata -13.36085 -71.67356

Author elsslots
Admin
#418 | Posted: 7 Aug 2019 13:36 
hubert:
Rural Temples of Cusco

Thanks a lot!

Author elsslots
Admin
#419 | Posted: 7 Aug 2019 22:45 | Edited by: elsslots 
elsslots:
Wineries and Vineyards for traditional Pisco Production

Had a first stab at this one. Found some but not all. Still missing location #2 (Hijos del Sol) and #9-14 (last 6 on the list)

elsslots:
- Cultural Landscape of the Sondondo Valley


And converted these, although the coordinates seem to point at nothing in particular at all

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#420 | Posted: 19 Aug 2019 11:34 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Further to Zoe's review of her unsatisfactory "visit" to the "City of Azúa de Compostela".
Unfortunately the coordinates on our map are incorrect!!!!
Whoever determined them decided (not unreasonably) to use the centre of the town/city of "Azua". A choice had to be made as the coordinates given on the UNESCO site are clearly incorrect - "Coordinates: 70°37' W / 18°25' N" . Converted to a format which Google maps accepts (18.41666, -70.61666) this is somewhere in the sea south of Dom Rep!

The UNESCO description of the site contains some clues - "The old village of Azúa, it was founded in the year 1504 by Diego Velazquez, during the government Nicolas of Ovando. In December of 1508, by providence of the Crown of Spain, it was granted a coat of arms, the same as other villages of the Spaniard. Azúa was plundered by corsairs and pirates in the middle of the XVI century. Little less than one century later it was destroyed by an earthquake in 1751."
So the site is not at the town of Azua - where it was moved to in 1751 but at the original 1504 location! (This movement of towns after earthquakes is a common theme in the Dom Rep T List!!!)

This Wiki Article provides the info - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pueblo_Viejo,_Dominican_Republic
"The town that is now known as Pueblo Viejo was the place where in 1504 Diego Velázquez de Cuéllar, the conqueror of Cuba, founded the colonial town of Azua de Compostela. It was named in honour of one of the first Spanish settlers in the area, Don Pedro Gallego, a native of Santiago de Compostela, in Galicia, Spain. The first part of the name is derived from the local Native American name for the area. The old colonial city was destroyed by an earthquake on October the 16th 1751. The settlers of the area moved further North, near the River Road, and established a new town in that area."

The coordinates of "Pueblo Viejo" are - 18.401271, -70.765917 (absolutely accurate and verified via Google satellite view but slightly different from those in the Wiki article)

This location is indeed 7.5kms SSW of the "modern" town of Azua - so Zoe may have been referring to it when she said "there ARE some ruins 7km south of town that are recommended by the tourist bureau but i guess that's something totally different."

These ruins also appear to be in a bad way. See this article from 2011 - "Ruinas de Pueblo Viejo de Azua, en abandono LA INDIFERENCIA DE LAS AUTORIDADES AFECTA A ESTE PATRIMONIO CULTURAL" - https://listindiario.com/ventana/2011/04/09/184043/ruinas-de-pueblo-viejo-de-azua-en-abandono

Some photos of the ruins are here.
And this is a video news item in Spanish from 2016 bemoaning the poor condition of the ruins!

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How do I get to visit Aldabra? www.worldheritagesite.org Forum / How do I get to visit Aldabra? /
 TWHS Maps - The data

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