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Author Solivagant
Partaker
#391 | Posted: 11 Dec 2018 12:41 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zoe:
The Persian Caravanserai are annoying to figure ou

"Bisotoon" is the "easiest" to visit since it operates as a hotel/restaurant is situated on the site of the "Bisotun" WHS and can be visited whilst at the main site!!! It is already inscribed as part of the Bisotun WHS. Its coordinates are 34.384540, 47.434775

I personally preferred some of old ruined (and , to me "un-named") ones which we passed - Shah Abbas was "obsessed" with the provision of Caravanserai across his state to facilitate trade etc etc and they had to be situated only a day apart (by camel I presume)!! So you can imagine that you will pass many many of them in crumbling ruins alongside the excellent dual carriageways which constitute much of Iran's intercity road system !

A fair number are now hotels but, offhand, I don't recognise any of the other titles used in the T List selection. I will have a look through to see if any are easily identifiable

We called in a Zein-o-din which does operate as a hotel/restaurant but we thought it to be a rather disappointing "tourist trap" with "rooms" set up for group tours and were pleased to leave it behind and stay in Yazd! It is nicely situated in desert with background mountains but they charge entrance for non residents (you get a tea!!!)

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#392 | Posted: 11 Dec 2018 16:33 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zoe:
The Persian Caravanserai are annoying to figure out because the document uses odd names

I have had a go.
The list on the UNESCO site seems to be of 32 Caravanserai rather than 25 - unless the commas are in the wrong place. I have found a fair number. I have cited alternative spellings where this has helped. Others I have just listed the general location where I can't find the precise coordinates - I think that is 19 done in all so far. It is worth keeping them in the sequence of the UNESCO list as I think they are grouped by province - which can help finding them and choosing between mutliple uses of the same name in different provinces!

1. Robat Sharaf, ALREADY DONE
2. Robat Mahi, 34.268469, 46.805439 (Another Shah Abbas period C, situated c 27kms west of Kermanshah
3. Sharif Abad,
4. Robat Sang, 35.991865, 59.761156 (Now called the "Sang bast" caravanserai. Nr Mashad)
5. Fakhre-Davood, 35.999918, 59.313469 (a.ka. Fahkr-e Davud)
6. Ghadamgah, 36.107117, 59.061218 (a.k.a Qadamqah)
7. Neyshaboor, 36.197987, 58.801089
8. Sange Kalil, (likely to be "Sang-e Khalil"??)
9. Zaferanyeh, 36.165716, 58.086288
10. Mehr, 36.292728, 57.148964 ("Mehr Caravanserai is in Mehr village 50kms W of Sabzevar city", Coord for village only)
11. Mazinan, 36.307992, 56.806603 ("Mazinan Caravansari, Mazinan Village, near Sabzevar")
12. Myandasht, ("17th c. Miandasht complex is located between the cities of Sharod and Sabzeva)
13. Myamey,
14. Deh Molla, (SW of Sharoud)
15. Ahovan, (42kms east of Semnan but can't yet find on map)
16. Qushe, 35.961080, 54.044932
17. Lasgerd, 35.400186, 53.083458
18. Dehnamak, 35.255307, 52.731020
19. Deyre Gachin, 35.058302, 51.420227 (a.k.a Deir-e Gachin See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir-e_Gachin
20.Eynol Rashid, 34.746163, 52.162933
21. Parand,
22. Sado Saltaneh, ALREADY DONE
23. Zeynol Din, ALREADY DONE
24. Khamoshi,
25. Farasfag, 34.488126, 48.282926 (a.k.a Farasfaj. Shah Abbas Caravanserai)
26. Bisooton, ALREADY DONE
27. Izadkhast, 31.513473, 52.132888
28. Khan khoreh, (a.k.a Abad Khoreh (korshid ) Caravanserai Qazvin - but city or province?)
29. Taj Abad,
30. GHasre shirin, 34.512883, 45.579410 (a.k.a Qasr-e Shirin)
31. GHelli, (a.k.a Robat-e Ghelli -in same region as Robat-e Eshgh)
32. Robat Eshgh. (a.k.a Robat-e Eshq at "Chaman bid")

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#393 | Posted: 12 Dec 2018 03:25 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I have come across a rather nice Web site about Caravanserai in Iran - it explains the architectural variations etc and also lists c900 of them and places them on a map as a "dot". Unfortunately the dots are not addressable !! It does show however just how common Caravanserai are along Iran's highways!! A few (e.g Bisotun) are covered in greater detail.
See - http://www.karavansera.com/caravansary.html

The "list of 900" contains many of those from the UNESCO list and is useful for identifying their alternative spellings if not for where exactly they are!!!
I have however failed to find the following in any recognisable alternative spellings from the UNESCO 32
Sharifabad
Parand
Miyamey
Khamoshi

This must raise the question as to whether the UNESCO site list has given the incorrect impression about the number of separate Caravanserai in it - ie. are some of the "titles" actually a part of the full name/address of the previous/following Caravanserai! E.g Sharifabad is a common town name in Iran

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#394 | Posted: 12 Dec 2018 15:07 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Have traced 4 more -

32. Robat Eshgh. (a.k.a Robat-e Eshq)
i s at 37.323374, 56.557877
confirmed via translation from Farsi shown on the map -
کاروانسرای رباط عشق

And
31. GHelli, (a.k.a Robat-e Ghelli - In same region as Robat-e Eshgh) - certainly the correct village not far from the above but am not 100% sure of the exact location of the "ruins". This satellite location looks "likely" and will be within c500m in any case - 37.192500, 56.935344

And
14. Deh Molla, (SW of Sharoud) - 36.288953, 54.768812

And
15. Ahovan, (42kms east of Semnan)
Found it -the nearby petrol station is called "QP8P+7M Ahevanu, Iran" on Google maps. It is interesting how a number of gas stations/service stops are situated adjacent to caravanserai - I remember that when we were there - "tradition" dies hard!
The caravanserai's square structure is clear and it is called "کاروانسرای گردنه آهوان" in Farsi which translates as "caravanserai" - located at
35.770715, 53.729879

And
12 Myandasht/Miandasht
Shahroud and Sabzevar are on a direct route 248kms apart - and "17th c. Miandasht complex is located between the cities of Sharod and Sabzeva"
This Web site is more specific and places it "102kms East of Shahroud" See - http://www.irtouring.com/miandasht-caravanserai-middle-persian-silk-road/
Found it!!! Another restaurant described as "کاروانسرای میاندشت شاهرود" which translates to "Miandash Shahround Caravanserai"
The only review states "Shah Abbasi Miandash Caravanserai is the largest caravanserai of Shah Abbasi in Iran. From Tehran to Mashhad after Miami. Accommodation is available. Restaurants and rooms have heating. They have good service and a very affordable accommodation with a completely traditional and beautiful space"
The only problem is that, on "Satellite view" no buildings (ruined or otherwise) seem to be where the pointer has been placed!! A few kms further the correct place is there (42kms east of Miami/Mayamey) - clearly a Caravanserai at 36.428429, 56.059745

So that is the 4 done earlier + the 16 above + the 5 done here = 25 in all to date
The T List entry refers to 25 so, we could have done all of them but the actual list is apparently of 32 different places.
If it were to be 32 then we are still missing 7 - but 4 of these aren't even in the "list" of 900!!

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#395 | Posted: 13 Dec 2018 02:10 | Edited by: Solivagant 
So, the remaining "unlocated" Caravanserai from the 32 are these 7
3 Sharif Abad
8. Sange Kalil, (likely to be "Sang-e Khalil"??)
13 Myamay
21 Parand
24 Khamoshi
28. Khan khoreh, (a.k.a Abad Khoreh (korshid ) Caravanserai Qazvin - but city or province?)
29. Taj Abad,

Finding Myansasht above has helped. It is located near "Miami" or "Mayamay". Could that be the same as "Myamey"?? Yes! There appear to be a number of Caravanserai close to each other on the Shahroud to Mashad pilgrimage route. See - http://consideratcaravanserai.net/TravelLog/LogSilkroadWE/Entries/2003/1/20_From_Shah rud_to_Mashad.html
This describes getting to Meamey (sic)

13 Myamey
Meamay is "65kms from Shahroud" . The town of "Miamey" is actually 75kms from Shahroud - good enough? "The caravanserai is located right at the centre of the little town that sits on a gentle slope towards the foot of a mountain."
Here it is AND correctly titled in Farsi - 36.409205, 55.653382

28. Khan khoreh
Is here - http://www.karavansera.com/khankhoreh.html
A beautiful octagonal Caravanserai. Google has it correctly titled in Farsi Coordinates - 30.843882, 53.132362

leaving 5 of the 32 (assuming that they are genuine "extra" locations rather than a part of the title/address of the others. In any case the UNESCO stated "25 Caravanserai" has been exceeded!)

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#396 | Posted: 13 Dec 2018 03:51 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zoe:
36.26949, 50.00012 Sa'adol Saltane (apparently the best one?)

Have just noticed where this "Caravanserai" is, Zoe - in Qazvin.
I don't think I would call it "the best" Caravanserai
If you visit Qazvin you will see it - and you should - but I would question whether it is really a "Caravanserai". My Iran guide books don't mention the word "Caravanserai" but clearly describe it as a "Bazaar"
I am sure that there are aspects of its historic use and elements of its architecture which justify Iran's description of it as a "Caravanserai" but it is basically a bazaar and has neither the classical architectural form (see the excellent web site I cited before - http://www.karavansera.com/caravansary.html ) nor the "feeling"/atmosphere/location of a Caravanserai at all - if you want those then try one of the many others!!
And it has recently been VERY heavily restored. Qazvin is well situated for tourism - day/weekend trips for Tehranis and on the main route up through Soltaniyah to Tabriz and beyond for foreigners. It appears to have been improving/restoring its tourism infrastructure. We stayed, by the way, at the nearby "Traditional Beyrouzi Hotel" - very pleasant/"authentic". But small so I don't know how easy to get a room on spec.
When we were in Qazvin a couple of years ago I was interested to note a plaque pointing to the "Secretariat of the 11th Silk Road Mayors Forum, Qazvin 2016". Iran's current Silk Road T list entry doesn't identify the likely elements - but I would expect Qazvin to be included.
The Bazaar is rather touristy and lacks the authenticity of purpose which you will find at the Tabriz bazaar. A nicely restored architectural complex but a bit "cleaned up"!

Author elsslots
Admin
#397 | Posted: 13 Dec 2018 12:02 
Good work Solivagant! I will add them over the weekend

Author Zoe
Partaker
#398 | Posted: 14 Dec 2018 09:53 
That one was recommended in at least one review; however, since you found so many locations I can visit others on the way and see Ramsa instead going on to Tehran. I wanna say thanks and also quite excited to "hunt" these down - almost want to do it by camel :D

Author Assif
Partaker
#399 | Posted: 5 Jan 2019 10:09 

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#400 | Posted: 5 Apr 2019 13:57 
Whilst planning an upcoming trip to Colombia I noticed that, to date, we have only located 2 of the 7 T Listed "Catholic Doctrine Temples".
I have tried hard to locate the other 5 but have only succeeded so far with 3. The other 2 are "off road" within named areas identified on Google Maps but are not marked or visible on Satellite view so I have left them out.
Herewith
San Miguel de Avirama – already located
San Antonio de Chinas - 2.693693, -76.043798
Santa Rosa de Lima o Capisisco
Santa Rosa de Suyn (a.k.a Suin) 2.733851, -76.083123
San Pedro Apóstol de Togoima (a.k.a - Toboyma) 2.636250, -75.992268
San Roque de Yaquivá (a.k.a - Yaquiba)
San Andres de Pisimbala – already located

This article (in Spanish) describes the churches and has photos and a map. This latter should have helped - but doesn't in the case of the missing 2!!!
http://www.scielo.org.co/pdf/res/n64/0123-885X-res-64-00075.pdf

Author Zoe
Partaker
#401 | Posted: 21 Jul 2019 09:08 
Where did that info for the Church of Jacagua map pointer come from? (Dominican Republic) Fairly certain it is incorrect and pointing at a bridal shop. The fenced off area on Google map is more of a construction yard that shut down years ago.

Author elsslots
Admin
#402 | Posted: 21 Jul 2019 09:42 | Edited by: elsslots 
Zoe:
Where did that info for the Church of Jacagua map pointer come from? (Dominican Republic) Fairly certain it is incorrect and pointing at a bridal shop. The fenced off area on Google map is more of a construction yard that shut down years ago.

It may not have been clear from the title that this is not a neigbourhood but a (very small) church.
However, a quick search did not point me to a believable location. Have you found it?

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#403 | Posted: 21 Jul 2019 12:50 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
It may not have been clear from the title that this is not a neigbourhood but a (very small) church.
However, a quick search did not point me to a believable location. Have you found it?

It would indeed appear that the ruins of the Church are the only visible remains of the settlement.
But they seem to have problems of preservation and of visiting. These 2 articles (in Spanish) give the background and "instructions" for visiting and the second contains a photo.
a. https://www.elcaribe.com.do/2015/09/19/sin-categoria/las-ruinas-santiago-viejo/
b. https://hoy.com.do/conociendo-las-ruinas-del-viejo-santiago-de-los-caballeros/ .

So
a. They are on private land owned by a family named "Benoit" - these are the descendants of a French military officer who bought the lands in 1817 - since when they have been subdivided significantly
b. It is necessary to go through private land in order to see them - this needs to be done with a member of the Benoit family and a small payment. The photo would indicate that they are in a wooded area rather than immediately facing a street and are not well signposted - "Aunque son muy pocas las señalizaciones donde se encuentran las ruinas,"
c. The State has been trying to acquire the ruins for some time - as yet unsuccessfully. It would appear that the Benoits could be willing sellers but that the State isn't willing to pay enough!!

But none of this is actually providing the coordinates!!! And, so far, the Web hasn't yielded anything specific to my searches. And my ageing LP doesn't mention the ruins (We visited the Dom Rep as long ago as 1999)

It would seem certain that it is situated further out of town than the currently identified location and needs to be within a reasonably large area of open countryside- this YouTube "video" shows open fields and trees in flat land with hills in the background - but no indication of where -just the unanswered question - "quisiera saber como llegar allá, con quien me comunico y toda la información necesaria."!!!

Google maps doesn't show anything related to the Ruinas de Jacagua or similar BUT it DOES show a "Hacienda Benoit" at 19.514962, -70.719957 . See here for "Satellite View" of the area - it can be seen that, behind the Hacienda to the North East, is a flat area of fields and trees and also a small pool (???) which might seem to fit in with this description of the location - "De la Villa de Jacagua o Santiago Viejo solo queda lo que se conoce como Las Ruinas de Jacagua, un camino empedrado, la planta de una construcción militar, muros y las escalinatas y paredes de lo que se supone fue la iglesia, reconstruida en el siglo XIX, y un pozo reformado en alberca. Es mucho lo que se ha hablado de rescatar esta zona para convertirla en un atractivo turístico, pero todo se ha quedado en planes. La familia Benoit, a la que pertenece la tierra donde está ubicada, aún espera que el Estado le compre los terrenos".

The hills are also situated a bit further away as per the YouTube photos - so it stays as my best attempt at the moment!
Are you planning to go? If so then you can check for us!!

Author Zoe
Partaker
#404 | Posted: 21 Jul 2019 19:23 
Hmm I may if I can be more certain it is there but I have my doubts. The hacienda is a park and I think a coincidence to have the same name. I asked some people but cultural heritage isn't exactly their thing here.

It may be wise to ask the websites to place a proper address if they want to promote it. I found another article and i says there is a single paved road going to this place. I would place is much further out of town.
https://gurabocity.com/2018/06/30/jacagua-se-levanta-de-ruinas-para-alcanzar-desarrollo/

Guess I'm missing out.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#405 | Posted: 22 Jul 2019 04:06 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zoe:
I found another article

Its the same article I quoted from in Spanish above.
The picture is that San Francisco de Jacagua is a municipality within the larger town/city of Santiago de los Caballeros. It is situated in the northern sector of that town/city (which is the 2nd biggest in the country!) and includes the ruins somewhere within its boundaries! The article says that it covers 5 sq kms - so not so big!! It is clearly "on the up" as an area with a lot of development for people who want to live in the suburbs and the new highway must play a part. It certainly extends to the north of that highway and into the mountains with at least one local "beauty spot" waterfall and walks in the "Monumento Natural Pico Diego de Ocampo". But - there isn't too much within its boundaries "further out of town" beyond the highway before reaching the mountains. The video certainly shows it situated before them on flat land and I would stick with it being inside the ring road. The Hacienda named after its owners seems as good a place as any to start - especially as it possesses an empty hinterland!! Worth a try if you had the time but it doesn't seem such a worthwhile sight that it is worth spending much time/effort looking for it - or even going to it.... but if you are already in Santiago???. Its chances of inscription would also seem to be rather low -not strong enough or well enough looked after??
PS This video - "A tour of Santiago de los Caballeros" states that the ruins are 15 minutes by car from the centre of that city and (at 1 min 17 secs) actually shows a roadside signpost pointing to "Santiago Viejo". - so they can't be that "unknown" if you are in the general area!

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 TWHS Maps - The data

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