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Author Solivagant
Partaker
#286 | Posted: 1 Nov 2018 07:33 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
Gathering from the meagre documentation available, it is indeed likely that they all are separate locations.

Yes, I think it is correct, given the current knowledge about this WHS, to treat it as comprising 7 separate "locations" - it is also "useful" to do so since it highlights the UNESCO-inscribed buildings among the numerous others.

Those of us who have reviewed the site (Els and myself from early 2011) have all concluded that 7 churches were indeed inscribed but that information about the core zone boundary/ies is missing - both "on site" and in the UNESCO documentation.

I have just carried out a "Web based" investigation to see if anything "better" is available and uncovered a report from around mid 2015 (it doesn't possess an "official" date but was submitted in Oct 2015) which addresses the issue of protection of Old Goa. From it I think we must conclude that the WHS indeed needs still to be regarded as being made up of 7 separate "locations"

A few relevant quotes
"1968, The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) set up an office in Old Goa and declared 21 monuments of National Importance in Goa, including 14 of them in Old Goa. In 1978, The Goa Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Sites and Remains Act were passed and six monuments in Old Goa were declared as being of regional importance. In 1986, of the fourteen monuments, seven monuments were adopted by UNESCO as
"Group of Monuments" of World Heritage"


"Following are the selected monuments by UNESCO. i. Se Cathedral, ii. Basilica of Bom Jesus iii. Convent of St. Francis of Assisi iv. Chapel of St. Cajetan v. Ruins of the Convent of St Augustine vi. Church of Our Lady of Rosario vii. Chapel of St. Catherine. At present Goa has 1 World heritage site includes 7 monuments, 21 Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) protected monument and 51 monuments comes under state protection. 7 UNESCO sites are located only in "Old Goa" "

But the report also seems to indicate that these monuments don't (or didn't as recently as mid 2015) possess formal boundaries which provide legal protection. Such boundaries around buildings as have been defined by ASI aren't adhered to. New ("All India" as opposed to "State") laws in 2010 providing for 100 and 200 metre core and buffer boundaries around "National Monuments" don't appear to have been implemented. One map (section 3.5) indicates that the 7 monuments could be included within the boundaries of either 1, 2 or 3 core zones according to how far out the boundary might be placed!

But the report concludes that the concept of just having boundaries around individual monuments is inappropriate for a site such as Old Goa - "This monument centric approach to the world heritage site itself is main issue which needs to be addressed in order to have proper management plan in place"

It really is amazing that UNESCO hasn't come down harder on India for this state of affairs (especially given the zeal with which it has pursued certain other sites from Western European countries!!). From WHC minutes the site appears to have received NO ATTENTION at a WHC since 2003 when a "State of Conservation Report" (produced by the ASI itself!!) was able to conclude that everything about the boundaries and preservation was satisfactory! - http://whc.unesco.org/document/162836

Even the report I have quoted above wasn't "Official" but had been produced by a Masters student in Infrastructure Planning from Stuttgart University. (Though I see no reason to believe that the "facts" he states about boundaries are incorrect). I note one para "If such development continues to happen it won't take long for UNESCO to step in and put World Heritage Site of Old Goa in World Heritage Site in Danger List. Thus it is of foremost importance to have proper management plan in action.". When is UNESCO going to get round to Goa???

See - "Old Goa: A Heritage City, Urban threats and revival strategies" - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282778757_Old_Goa_A_Heritage_City_-_Urban_th reats_and_revival_strategies

PS. In July 2016, the Goa government "assigned renowned architect Ketak Nachinolkar the work of conducting a detailed study on various parameters concerning the heritage site.". This was to include "work on delineation of the historic sites". All this as part of an intention to develop a Management Plan for the site. To show that they were "serious", the powers-that-be required that "Nachinolkar has to submit his report within a month"!!!!! Since then???? ....... nothing has been reported on the Web.
See - https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/news/india/masterplan-to-preserve-old-goa-heri tage/articleshow/53025196.cms

Author Zoe
Partaker
#287 | Posted: 1 Nov 2018 11:41 
Amazing research. I haven't been to see them but plan to go in January so my map planning looked like there are lots of other places in the area not part of the inscription. I think the main issue about the boundaries would be for the ruined church which may or may not be just the tower.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#288 | Posted: 18 Feb 2019 16:24 | Edited by: nfmungard 
Are the Rockart Sites near Alicante correct? They are in the middle of the sea... I am also not sure how precise they are in general.

Having done some geocaching (and failed), maybe someone can review how good they are ...

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#289 | Posted: 20 Feb 2019 17:17 
Just seen this, they are out by a grid reference square apparently.

Our resident Spanish Rock art specialists had pointed this out before, but they are in Ethiopia at the moment, I will see if I have the details somewhere.

Author Kbecq
Partaker
#290 | Posted: 12 May 2019 11:08 
We regularly pass through the Nord-Pas de Calais (mining basin) region and it seems that some coordinates on the map are not correct:

- Cité du Pont: should be 50.496062, 2.869082
- Fosse 13bis: should be 50.478435, 2.822196
- Terril 244: 50.586182, 2.306611

The exact locations/boundaries of all components are easy to find on http://www.bassinminier-patrimoinemondial.org/en/cartographie-interactive/ (in addition, the 'ressources' folder on the French version of the website gives a lot of other info such as a map per commune etc).

Ps: the Unesco website lists 108 components but the website referred to above mentions 109 (and so does the map on the Unesco website). The 'missing' component is number 10 / terril 189 (coordinates 50.380507, 3.515671).

Author elsslots
Admin
#291 | Posted: 12 May 2019 23:58 
Kbecq:
We regularly pass through the Nord-Pas de Calais (mining basin) region and it seems that some coordinates on the map are not correct:

- Cité du Pont: should be 50.496062, 2.869082
- Fosse 13bis: should be 50.478435, 2.822196
- Terril 244: 50.586182, 2.306611

Thanks, I've changed them

Author Jasam
Partaker
#292 | Posted: 3 Jun 2019 13:20 
meltwaterfalls
meltwaterfalls:
Just seen this, they are out by a grid reference square apparently.

Our resident Spanish Rock art specialists had pointed this out before, but they are in Ethiopia at the moment, I will see if I have the details somewhere.

Wow, I'm late! I will have a look though.

Author Jasam
Partaker
#293 | Posted: 3 Jun 2019 13:20 
This morning's chit chat on WhatsApp had me have a closer look at Spain's TWHSs (there's one I was unaware of at some 40km from my place!) and I believe the coordinates for The Wine in Iberia: Las Cumbres on the website are a bit off. I think they're more like 36.6353, -6.1539 (I'm 85% sure).

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#294 | Posted: 3 Jun 2019 15:11 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Jasam:
I believe the coordinates for The Wine in Iberia: Las Cumbres on the website are a bit off. I think they're more like 36.6353, -6.1539 (I'm 85% sure).

We have separate topic for T LIst coordinates - but it is difficult to find!!!
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=2&topic=2092&page=27
I will continue here unless Els wants to transfer this thread to the T List topic!!!

I raised the issue of the Coordinates for Castillo de Dona Blanca and Las Cumbres in my review of 29 May 2018 -
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/tentative/The+Wine+in+Iberia#userreview_15900
BOTH are STILL(****) incorrect on our maps.
In the review I give the correct coords for Castillo but I didn't feel confident enough to specify EXACT coordinates for Las Cumbres. "...Castillo de dona Blanca and the necropolis of Las Cumbres (I think that this location is also wrongly shown on our maps and actually lies on the hill immediately behind the Castillo site"

Have you actually been there????

Although we visited the Castillo we didn't search out Las Cumbres - but it is VERY close. As my review states there is actually a notice inside the Castillo site headed "Las Cumbres" - but it wasn't clear if it referred to what was in front of us or to "The Hills" beyond in the distance!!
This article describes Las Cumbres as "El poblado de Las Cumbres se halla situado en la zona más alta del extremo oriental de la Sierra de San Cristóbal, y supone una ampliación en ese lugar de la última fase de la ciudad del Castillo de Doña Blanca." ("located in the highest area of ​​the eastern end of the Sierra de San Cristóbal, and is an extension in that place of the last phase of the city of Doña Blanca Castle. ")
So - how close IS it to the "Castillo"?
Another article refers to "30 años de la excavación del Túmulo 1 de la Necrópolis de Las Cumbres en el Castillo de Doña Blanca" ("Las Cumbres Necropolis IN the Doña Blanca Castle")

I am happy to go with your coordinates since, on Google satellite view, there appears to be a large number of "Tumuli" nearby (unless it is a roadbuilder's site!!!) indicating the possibility of a Necropolis and it is less than a Kilometre from the main Castillo site. I might just alter them very slightly to 36.633710, -6.154302 in order to pick out the "mounds"??

**** Both now corrected by Els (4/6/19)

Author elsslots
Admin
#295 | Posted: 4 Jun 2019 08:19 
Solivagant:
**** Both now corrected by Els (4/6/19)

indeed!

Author Jasam
Partaker
#296 | Posted: 12 Jun 2019 08:36 
Solivagant:
**** Both now corrected by Els (4/6/19)

I found this article with a detailed map:

http://arqueologiaenelpuertoysuentorno.blogspot.com/2014/09/el-uso-historico-de-los-recursos_79.html

However, like every other article on the subject, it refers to Las Cumbres as a necropolis, not quite the "town (...) with a developed urbanism, streets and houses distributed in rectangular lots, as well as a series of industrial facilities" from the description on the UNESCO website...

I still believe the coordinates I gave the other day are right and correspond to area number 6 on the map ("zona donde se encuentran las cazoletas").

Anyway, I will go and see it for myself soon! Will keep you updated.

PS: for some reason, both markers on the map are now off. I think they sould be:
The Wine in Iberia: Site of Castillo de Doña Blanca 36.628279, -6.161364
The Wine in Iberia: Las Cumbres 36.633733, -6.1516173 (approximately)

Author Jasam
Partaker
#297 | Posted: 12 Jun 2019 11:11 
Jasam:
PS: for some reason, both markers on the map are now off. I think they sould be:
The Wine in Iberia: Site of Castillo de Doña Blanca 36.628279, -6.161364
The Wine in Iberia: Las Cumbres 36.633733, -6.1516173 (approximately)

I just realized, they're actually right on this map:
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/tentative/id/6285
but not on that one:
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/tentative/map

Author elsslots
Admin
#298 | Posted: 12 Jun 2019 11:41 

Just needs a refresh via the icon on the bottom right of the page, they use the same data

Author Jasam
Partaker
#299 | Posted: 12 Jun 2019 12:24 
elsslots:
Just needs a refresh via the icon on the bottom right of the page, they use the same data

Oh, right, sorry! Thanks!

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#300 | Posted: 31 Jul 2019 04:02 | Edited by: nfmungard 
Kezmarok is incorrectly placed.
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/list/id/1273

Should be:
49.1333842,20.4277212

Same for
Hervartov - Church of Saint-Francis of Assisi
49.246714, 21.203783

Spissky Hrad has two main locations:
https://www.worldheritagesite.org/list/id/620

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 WHS Map - the Data

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