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Author nfmungard
Partaker
#46 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 03:53 
Solivagant:
For this one I used Google Maps "map view" to find the approx location then switched to "satellite view" and homed in on the "Alabaster Sphinx" just inside the main entrance/car park - titled and clearly visible in the picture!!

The map by Ian holds all locations of a site. Memphis according to Unesco is two. One being the Pyramids, the other Memphis. I basically used the same approach for both locations (Sphinx, Memphis) assuming that these would be the two inferred locations. The map material is very little help here.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#47 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 04:07 | Edited by: Solivagant 
nfmungard:
Memphis according to Unesco is two. One being the Pyramids, the other Memphis. I basically used the same approach for both locations (Sphinx, Memphis) assuming that these would be the two inferred locations. The map material is very little help here.

Yes 2 sites (or rather "Separate locations" to avoid confusion over the word "site" which is possibly best restricted to the entire inscription as in "World Heritage Site") - one the Pyramid Fields etc being very large running N/S and the other - completely separate - on the eastern side of the north/south canal at the southern end and quite small - ie the site of Memphis and, somewhat surprisingly, given the reference 001 leaving 002 to the much larger and more significant "location". The first UNESCO map of the 3 relates to this location (the other 2 relate to the Pyramid fields 002) and shows this site and its boundaries etc quite clearly but unfortunately in arabic - you can make out the east west road and the canals on either side between which Memphis is located and the complicated boundary is obviously designed to avoid villages etc. But what it doesn't show (unless possibly you understand Arabic) is where exactly the Memphis site centre/entrance/main area is within this complex area and in any case doesn't provide coordinates - so how to choose a point within it??. The site however is shown well by Google Satellite view which thus avoids all need to "estimate" and provides the decimal coordinates - clearly one can choose different "central points" but the Alabaster Sphinx by the entrance car park seems good enough - as did your choice of the Sphinx at Giza which isn't really needed as Ian's current location for the entire "site" can be used for location 002 and is situated at the centre of the Pyramid of Khafra.
Interestingly the WGA and Geo URI coordinates for the site of Memphis give a location quite a distance away from the entrance/main sights, which in conjunction with the "errors" we have found in the UNESCO coordinates shows that it is always worth double checking any which are "given" -
https://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Memphis%2C_Egypt&params=29_50_ 41_N_31_15_3_E_type:landmark

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#48 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 05:20 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Q to Meltwaterfalls.
How are you deciding which coordinates to use at the overall site level and which to use at what I am calling the "location" level??
Are you always using Id 001 for the former?? Or do you have a "separate" set of coordinates for the "site"" whose "dot" will usually overlay that for "location" 001?
If I use an example of a 2 location site like Coro, as I understand it one of the dots always remains "larger" than the others as the others "appear" when one zooms in?
In the case of Memphis and the Pyramid fields above that would mean of course that the "lesser" site at Memphis would always get the larger "dot" being Id Ref 001!! I have no problems with this - "just asking"!!
I have just looked at the OZ Fossil site -which of course has Riversleigh and Narracoorte, presumably equally important, but thousands of miles apart. I note that at the "site" level only Riversleigh (001) appears and Naracoorte (002) is the smaller dot which only appears when multiple locations is turned on? The UNESCO map gets itself into a real muddle by having 2 dots for Riversleigh, one called "Riversleigh" and the other called "Riversleigh/Nararcoorte! They are situated a fair distance apart in the Riversleigh area but I don't know exactly how they have been positioned since of course Riversleigh only has one set of cooridinates! I suspect that there is no perfect answer but it is perhaps worth documenting how you have chosen to cover these matters?

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#49 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 12:09 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I have had a go at doing the coordinates for the Mzab Valley, Algeria
a. 27 Locations. not well known and with extra complexities of Arabic etc
b. I was there around 3 years ago so appreciate the geography a bit

Findings/conclusions
a. As with nfmungard and his reluctance to do all the locations for the German Limes I begin to wonder if it is worth trying to do every official UNESCO location. Many of those at Mzab are just a single building which seems of little importance -maybe if someone was particularly interested but I don't think we should aim to fill in the coordinates for every location on the list! Just the most significant ones. In the case of Mazab these (IMO) were the 5 towns, a couple of Palm Groves and the most famous of the mosques and cemeteries (those in the UNESCO photos and the one said to have influenced Le Corbusier). I gave up at 12 of the 27 having, I felt, met these criteria! As it was, it must have taken me an hour or so!
b. The Google map and satellite view was essential for carrying out the exercise - the UNESCO maps are incomplete - only showing the towns and associated buildings - the Palm Groves have no maps! There was no Nom file. It isn't a trivial job to discover coordinates for some of the locations and in the case of M'zab I think it would have been very difficult if I hadn't been there and could recognise the satellite views.
c. The current "dot" on Meltwaterfalls' current map version for the overall site isn't really correctly located. I feel we should adopt the standard that location 001 should be used for the site itself - and, if good reason not to, then another ACTUAL location should be used. The most significant spot inside that location should, wherever possible then be chosen.
d. Sometimes it is worth noting why a particular spot has been chosen - for instance in the 2 Palm Groves I did, chose the area of the Dam from where one walks rather than some nondescript palm tree!! Could we have a text "note area" for the entry of such "value added info"?? I also think that the location number of the coordinates should be shown in the pop-up text. Could/should "place holders" be left for "un-coordinated" locations -both as a check and for possible later completion?

Here are my coordinates (and "blanks") - not sure yet if this is the "best" format for you Meltwaterfalls.
188-001 Ksar El Atteuf 32.455470, 3.746585
188-002 Ksar Bounoura 32.483139, 3.704223
188-003 Ksar Melika 32.483176, 3.686826
188-004 Ksar Beni Isguen 32.473048, 3.695343
188-005 Ksar Ghardaïa 32.488765, 3.674519
188-006 Palm grove El Atteuf with the Mosque Aouel-Aouel and Aghern Baba Hanni 32.441929, 3.737487
188-007 Palm grove Ghardaia 32.511572, 3.635480 Dam area
188-008 Palm grove Bounoura
188-009 Palm grove Beni Isguen 32.465582, 3.683268 Dam area
188-010 Agherm N'tlasdit
188-011 Agherm Baba Saad
188-012 Mosque Sidi Brahim 32.473644, 3.744815
188-013 Mosque Oukhira
188-014 Mosque Ba Abdellah 32.477250, 3.745818
188-015 Mosque Bayoub Boukacem
188-016 Prayer Hall Abou Baker
188-017 Mosque Aguerm Ouadaï 32.484995, 3.686492
188-018 Prayer Hall Sidi Aïssa
188-019 Mosque Hadj Mhamed
188-020 Mosque Hadj Messaoud
188-021 Mosque Ba Abderrahmane
188-022 Mosque Ba Mhamed
188-023 Prayer Hall Cheikh Baelhadj 32.473485, 3.692748
188-024 Mosque Ami Said
188-025 Tomb Ami Said
188-026 Mosque Baba Oualdjemma
188-027 Mosque Baba Saad

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#50 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 13:59 
Sorry, for the delay in responding a busy couple of days. Thanks for the work on those multiple sites.

I will try and answer some points, and try an fix some terminology to use going forward to avoid mix ups (mostly on my casual use of terms)

Site is a World Heritage Site e.g. Frontiers of the Roman Empire
Location a specific component location of a site e.g. Lees Hall Roman camp on Hadrian's Wall part of the site Frontiers of the Roman Empire
Multi The layer on the map that shows multiple locations for sites

Solivagant:
On reflection I don't understand what you mean by a site coming back with "blanks" on the multiple locations". Is this totally or partially?

Sorry I wasn't especially clear, these are partially blank. These are sites where the webcrawler identified a location but the coordinates field was blank. For example it identified there should be a location associated with the German Limes but there were no co-ordinates for it (nor the Antonine Wall in Scotland), however there could be other locations in that site that do have co-ordinates, in the case of FoRE it has them for Hadrian's Wall.

nfmungard:
If you want the data, I can share the document with you

I'm going to share a document (hopefully tomorrow) that we can start to populate with this data. I may drop you a line to get those bits to start it off.

jonathanfr:
extract printable pdf versions example. Possible?

This is actually a bit tougher than it may seem, the short answer is no, however a Screenshot or Snipping tool will probably give you a fairly usable picture, that will be the simplest way in the short term, I will bare it in mind when developing the map and see if I can come up with solutions.

Solivagant:
How are you deciding which coordinates to use at the overall site level and which to use at what I am calling the "location" level??

The Site location is just what is on the Excel file on the official website, I'm making no judgements at this stage as to where the main site dot should be located. Likewise all the locations on the multi layer are just what comes back from the crawlers results on the UNESCO website maps tables. So they are two separate tables, they should overlap in one specific location, let me know if you find sites with multiple locations that don't.

Solivagant:
not sure yet if this is the "best" format for you Meltwaterfalls

It works pretty well thanks. Hopefully if I can get the shared file up it will be easier to just populate that. However in the interim the suggestions I would have are: an indicator between components of the data would help. Standard practice is to use a comma, however as there is text involved there is a fair bit of scope for a legitimate comma to be involved in the name (e.g.The Castle, Carlisle). As such I would suggest a semi-colon (;) Also a lack of spaces between components helps. For example:
188;001;Ksar El Atteuf;32.455470,3.746585

nfmungard:
Roman Limes -> Please shoot me. Not going to do that. I also doubt that it makes sense to add each and every site here.

I've made this from Google search for Limes.kml files, if you think this ties in with the actual locations of the site let me know and we can see about using them.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#51 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 15:00 
More points.

Bellinzona, Xanthos-Letoon, Turin, Olympic National Park, Kiev

884;001;Castelgrande;46.192844,9.022264;
884;002;Chateau de Montebello;46.1913454,9.0265365;
884;003;Chateau de Sasso Corbaro;46.1881591,9.0308916;
484;001;Xanthos;36.3576073,29.3252282;
484;002;Xanthos bis;36.3545365,29.3161312,17;Map based estimate.
484;003;Letoon;36.3319292,29.2897224;
823;001A;Zona di Commando;45.0713328,7.685315;Redundant. Contains Madama.
151;001;Olympic Mountains;47.9999995,-123.7095723;
151;002;Pacific Coastal Area;48.0554558,-124.5460076;
527;003;Church of the Saviour at Berestovo;50.436803,30.553185
527;bis-001;Saint-Sophia Cathedral;50.448609,30.5152107
527;bis-002;Kiev-Pechersk Lavra;50.4355396,30.5534176;Couldnt verify with map

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#52 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 15:03 
meltwaterfalls:
I've made this from Google search for Limes.kml files, if you think this ties in with the actual locations of the site let me know and we can see about using them.

It's nearly 400 sites or so and a lot of those are missing. It's a good placeholder though and I would just take it as is.

meltwaterfalls:
This is actually a bit tougher than it may seem, the short answer is no, however a Screenshot or Snipping tool will probably give you a fairly usable picture, that will be the simplest way in the short term, I will bare it in mind when developing the map and see if I can come up with solutions.

I think you can always "print" a PDF, but if it just embeds an image little is gained.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#53 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 15:06 
General question: What do you plan to do with the data?

Personally, I would make it available as much as possible, e.g. ask google, ... to publish. Also, Unesco may need proper data themselves? Caves of Aggtelek Karst and Slovak Karst off the coast of Africa is funny, but really bad.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#54 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 16:01 | Edited by: Solivagant 
meltwaterfalls:
The Site location is just what is on the Excel file on the official website, I'm making no judgements at this stage as to where the main site dot should be located.

Have just been doing a few checks on the UNESCO Excel file Coordinates -
The first query.
I see that Jongmyo and Changdeokgung Palace Complex have EXACTLY the same coordinates!! I know they are reasonably close together in Seoul but that is ridiculous. Perhaps that explains why this site's map only shows Changdeokgung??? The same is true of the UNESCO maps as well.

I also discovered something else of which I wasn't aware - it seems entirely fortuitous as to whether single location sites get given a "nnn-001" location id or not! Yet more UNESCO data cleansing problems??

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#55 | Posted: 13 Aug 2015 07:30 
Best I can do for Taxila - only 11 out of 18. Even with "help" from the book by Sir John Marshall - "A guide to Taxila" (reprint) and having been there. Most of the important ones are done. I could approximate a few others but, in such a small area, it hardly seems worthwhile - either get it spot on or don't bother!
139;001;Khanpur Cave
139;002;Saraikala, prehistoric mound
139;003;Bhir Mound;33.744125;72.819775
139;004;Sirkap (fortified city);33.757836;72.828583
139;005;Sirsukh (fortified ruined city);33.772248;72.847869
139;006;Dharmarajika stupa and monastery;33.744562;72.842261
139;007;Khader Mohra (Akhuri)
139;008;Kalawan group of buildings;33.727309;72.853732
139;009;Giri complex of monuments;33.728287;72.883353
139;010;Kunala stupa and monastery;33.750501;72.830598
139;011;Jandial complex;33.764308;72.828810
139;012;Lalchak and Badalpur Buddhist stupa
139;013;Mohra Moradu stupa and monastery;33.760796;72.860824
139;014;Pippala stupa and monastery;33.765762;72.866011
139;015;Jaulian stupa and monastery;33.764941;72.874886
139;016;Lalchak mounds
139;017;Buddhist remains around Bhallar stupa
139;018;Giri Mosque and tombs

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#56 | Posted: 13 Aug 2015 12:29 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
Here is a link to a spreadsheet with all of the inscribed sites and location on it. I have incorporated all of the amendments mentioned so far on here for specific locations, haven't yet extended to places that aren't specifically mention such as the Middle Rhine, and tentative sites are still in a mess so I have left them off for the moment.

Feel free to create your own copy and populate it with corrected coordinates, though try not to amend the ID and reference columns. Then we can collaborate to fill bits back in later.

I'm trying to think of a better way to share it so that multiple parties can work on it at the same time, any suggestions welcome. I'm going to be busy for a few days, but should be able to answer questions/ make minor tweaks.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#57 | Posted: 13 Aug 2015 14:35 | Edited by: Solivagant 
The UNESCO site coordinates for Taxila (ref 139) aren't really accurate. Although it is in the correct general area it doesn't locate any nominated site. I suggest we use the location of the Museum/Entrance gate i.e 33.746429 72.819400

The UNESCO site coordinates for Takht-i-Bahi are completely wrong for what is a fairly small site - 6kms north near a completely different village. I suggest we use location 001 below for the entire site
140;001;Takht-i-Bahi;34.286293;71.946765
140;002;Sahr-i-Bahlol;34.255685;71.951083

PS. Revised coordinates for 1351-010 are the wrong way round on spreadsheet
.

Author Durian
Partaker
#58 | Posted: 14 Aug 2015 01:07 | Edited by: Durian 
Thailand' coordinator are also not accurate
- Sukhothai should be 17.018456, 99.703701
- Si Satchanalai 17.431246, 99.787002
- Kamphang Phet 16.491249, 99.513233
- Ban Chiang 17.407703, 103.236566

Vietnam
- My Son should be 15.763013, 108.124108

Kyoto
- the coordinator in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_Monuments_of_Ancient_Kyoto_(Kyoto,_Uji_and_Ots u_Cities) is amazingly accurate.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#59 | Posted: 14 Aug 2015 02:31 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Forts and Castles Ghana
34;001;Fort Good Hope;5.387308;-0.489619
34;002;Cape Coast Castle;5.103622;-1.241127
34;003;Fort Patience (Fort Leysaemhyt) Apam;5.286321;-0.731046
34;004;Fort Amsterdam Abandze;5.192575;-1.094502
34;005;Fort St. Jago (Fort Conraadsburg) Elmina;5.084839;-1.350885
34;006;Fort Batenstein Butri;4.821634;-1.921151
34;007;Fort San Sebastian Shama;5.019942;-1.625942
34;008;Fort Metal Cross Dixcove;4.790127;-1.95059
34;009;English Fort (Fort Vrendenburg) Komenda; 5.051382;-1.486459
34;010;Fort Saint Antony Axim;4.868042;-2.244353
34;011;Elmina Castle (St. George's Castle/ Fort St. Jorge);5.082713;-1.347999

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#60 | Posted: 14 Aug 2015 06:51 
708;001;Sveti Tskhoveli Church;41.842303;44.721038
708;002;Samtavro Church and Monastery;41.846481;44.718355
708;003;Mtskhetis Jvari (The Church of the Holy Cross - Mtskheta);42.294878;44.733429

710;002;Gelati Monastery;42.294878;42.768445

707;001;Potala Palace;29.655532;91.118549
707;002;Jokhang Temple Monastery;29.650240;91.133860
707;003;Norbulingka;29.651267;91.092988

753;001;La médina d'Essaouira;31.514142;-9.768245
753;002;L'Archipel d'Essaouira;31.496396;-9.787106

777;003;Sanahin Bridge;41.098815;44.656903

657;003;The Church of the Presentation in the Temple (the Vvedenskaja Church);56.308532;38.132666
657;004;The Chapel over the Piatnitskij Well;56.308333;38.132728
657;005;The Red Hill Chapel (the Krasnogorskaja Chapel);56.310359;38.134017

971;001;Church of Achao;-42.471633;-73.488139
971;002;Church of Quinchao;-42.534850;-73.427473
971;004;Church of Rilán;-42.519871;-73.623519
971;005;Church of Nercón;-42.501646;-73.785538
971;006;Church of Aldachildo;-42.58388;-73.607111
971;007;Church of Ichuac;-42.616207;-73.716805
971;008;Church of Detif;-42.685036;-73.556425
971;009;Church of Vilupuili;-42.605426;-73.787912
971;010;Church of Chonchi;-42.623985;-73.773504
971;011;Church of Tenaún;-42.331840;-73.374933
971;012;Church of Colo;-42.247899;-73.370099
971;013;Church of San Juan;-42.335027;-73.504307
971;014;Church of Dalcahue;-42.379155;-73 647362
971;015;Church of Chelín;-42.601389;-73.516183
971;016;Church of Caguach;-42.510050;-73.266165

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