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Author meltwaterfalls
#31 | Posted: 10 Aug 2015 11:50 
Glad it will be of use. And yep it will be great to put some faces to names after all these years.

Author nfmungard
#32 | Posted: 10 Aug 2015 15:14 
Great map!

* Seeing the serial sites like this shows how insane some of them are. Belgium and Northern France are dotted. Maybe, it would be good to have a second serial layer to limit the dots on the map to something workable? Own layer for more than 10 components or so.
* Performance seems a bit sluggish every once in a while.
* Tried to review my sites and my gosh, is this a lot of work...

* Canal du Midi (serial): Toulouse, Beziers, Castelnaudary, Carcassone, ...
* Oaxaca: Add dot for Monte Alban (17.0438757,-96.7671651,16)
* Limes: Loads of sites to add in Germany.
* Ganghwa Dolmen missing: (37.773113, 126.436912)
* Western Ghats: 11.064796,76.4307827,12 (Silent Valley), 10.3853046,76.9326471,11 (Chinnar)
* Wachau: 48.2269012,15.3319484,13 (Melk)
* Rhine Valley: 50.271987,7.6493885,10 (Marksburg), 50.0865585,7.7664141,15 (Kaub), 50.1391662,7.7280556,15 (Loreley), 49.9722185,7.8790683,19 (Binger Mäuseturm)

* Mexico City: Move dot for Xochimilco (19.29082,-99.0976486,16).
* Cuernavaca (a bit off): 18.9192439, -99.2359826
* Tepotzlan (a bit off): 18.98635090945377, -99.09952282905579
* Amber Fort: 26.9840212,75.8508323,16
* Mountain Railways of India: 11.2972849,76.9338226,13 (Nilgiri)
* Yagul: 16.9580583,-96.4499526,14 (yagul)
* Sian Kaan: 19.9973813,-87.5742257,10, 20.0656013 (center),-87.5004113,12 (visitor center), 20.0691486,-87.5889886,12 (Muyil)

Author nfmungard
#33 | Posted: 10 Aug 2015 15:24 
Some comments on tentative sites:
* Mathildenhöhe: 49.8767856,8.6670488,16
* Jüdischer Friedhof Altona: 53.5499646,9.9500903,17
* Neuschwanenstein: 47.557574,10.7498004,17. Herrenchiemsee: 47.8604737,12.4020819,17. Linderhof: 47.5714027,10.9620843,16

* Van Nelle is still listed as tentative site ;)
* As is Speicherstadt

Author Solivagant
#34 | Posted: 10 Aug 2015 16:07 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Move dot for Xochimilco

Yes -as if there weren't enough problems already I suspect that the UNESCO data contains a few more! Whilst I was looking to see where Xochimilco had been placed by UNESCO (Near UNAM!!!) I just checked the Luis Barragan House for interest and found that it is apparently situated in the middle of Chapultepec Park!! The correct location is at 19.411078, -99.192434.

I don't know how you are "managing" all your data Meltwaterfalls. I would have thought it was worth keeping a separate list of (or "flagging") those where you have altered the UNESCO coordinates in some way, for future reference??

Rhine Valley: 50.271987,7.6493885,10 (Marksburg), 50.0865585,7.7664141,15 (Kaub), 50.1391662,7.7280556,15 (Loreley), 49.9722185,7.8790683,19 (Binger Mäuseturm)

The idea of mapping individual important locations within a single inscribed area would seem to open a completely new can of worms!! I fully agree that a single dot is no where near enough to "map" a site at the level of detail which the map allows us to drill down to and that such dots can become meaningless for large or strangely shaped sites - Maybe one day you Meltwaterfalls (or successors!!) will be able to map a "polygon layer" tracing the boundaries - but I would have thought that, for the immediate future, we should stick to 1 dot per "UNESCO identified location" on both Inscribed and T List sites and users will just have to accept that if they want to explore a site at this level of detail they will have to utilise the maps on the UNESCO web site or elsewhere. All the Natural and mixed sites are of course fully mapped with their boundaries on the World Data Base of Protected Areas map

Author meltwaterfalls
#35 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 06:27 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
Thanks for the feedback.

In regards to the Tentative list, yep there will still be inscribed sites/ places that have been knocked off the tentative lists etc (especially in Europe) if we could hold fire on those for the moment.

Thanks for the snag list on the locations of sites proper. These are the ones taken from UNESCO directly, and I have started to notice a fair few anomalies (I also clocked Casa Barragán yesterday when looking at a different base map:)). I will try and come up with a basic shared spreadsheet where we can document them.

Thanks for providing the decimal coordiantes, although can I put in one request if anyone is going to put them on here can you start your text with the official reference number. You can find this on the page on the UNESCO website in the right hand side panel (Ref: ) or it is also the number at the end of the web page address:

As an example:
412; Mexico City: Move dot for Xochimilco (19.29082,-99.0976486,16)

Author nfmungard
#36 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 06:59 
The idea of mapping individual important locations within a single inscribed area would seem to open a completely new can of worms!!

Don't see a big difference with listing all locations of one site in one town. E.g. Trier has several dots in Trier proper (btw really great). So adding the key sites to an area should be fine, too.

Side remark: Scanning OpenGIS documentation I would assume you can define areas.

As an example:
412; Mexico City: Move dot for Xochimilco (19.29082,-99.0976486,16)

Why not use a real CSV format directly?


This way you should be able to copy them directly to your file.

These are the ones taken from UNESCO directly

Noticed that, too. The coordinates are really all over the place quite regularly. Do you have a script to access their websites and extract the information? Or is this a manual process?

Author meltwaterfalls
#37 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 07:29 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
Why not use a real CSV format directly?

Perfect! Yep let's use that, makes my life a whole lot easier.
Do you have a script to access their websites and extract the information? Or is this a manual process?

I built a web crawler to get the info. The initial co-ordinates are all on the excel file on the official website. However the multiple locations had to come from the crawler ( if anyone is looking for a recommendation).

I've used the crawler to get info on Tentative sites as well so the update will be fuller and more robust. However the data on the t-list is very untidy and has required a lot of work to hammer it into shape, hence the multiple sites coming up before the t-list.

Author Solivagant
#38 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 09:32 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Don't see a big difference with listing all locations of one site in one town. E.g. Trier has several dots in Trier proper (btw really great). So adding the key sites to an area should be fine, too.

I just feel we should keep "official" UNESCO locations separate from "unofficial" (and potentially open ended) "key" locations. If they could be shown differently?? Also perhaps if we ever get round to producing "site level" maps zoomed in on the already chosen site?

So, Meltwaterfalls, do I take it that, unknown errors and omissions excepted, the population of the Inscribed sites on the map is "complete". If this is the case then the need for corrections is only going to be found by "random" checking? I have calculated from the "number of locations" on this Web site (I seem to remember that we had to correct it v the UNESCO count in a few cases) that there are 4770 official"locations" spread across the 1031 inscribed sites ( A few more than I had expected even allowing for the Med rock art and Roman Limes multi-location sites!!). Does your total number of "locations" with coordinates equal this? If not can some sort of comparison list be produced of locations per site on the map?

I presume that, once you have tried initially to populate the T List sites via your "crawler", you will provide us with a template and instructions for where to concentrate on looking for gaps in its data?

Another error I have noticed from the UNESCO data is for Coro - the UNESCO coords don't properly cover La Vela port nor correctly centre Coro itself. The map of Coro town on the UNESCO web site is very strange as the 2 sections equating presumably to Core and buffer zones do not include the Cathedral in the former despite the AB specifically mentioning that it was included!! I have, however centred the site on it rather than at N11 24 0.00 W69 42 8.00 which is out on the ring road! The UNESCO dooridate for La Vela is N13 28 4.00 W69 34 36.00 which is out to sea north of Aruba. It looks as if you have tried to correct this latter but have chosen the city ofCoro rather than the nearby toen of La Vela.
But choosing a coord for La Vela isn't easy. The original nomination was for "Coro and its dunes". As I understand it the natural aspect was never inscribed (Not listed in our "history of the site - Els. Also some "Connections" - "Name Change", "Cultural sites rejected for Natural Criteria" and possibly because of the addion of La Vela "Extenended from orignal TWHS?) and ICOMOS asked "That this nomination be referred back to the State Party, proposing the reduction of the proposed area in the historic centre of Coro and the addition of the historic core of La Vela". Thus the title got changed to "Coro and its port". NO WHERE can I find ANY description of any "historic core of La Vela" so i have chosen an arbitrary central point (La Vela is around 15kms from Coro itself)
658-001 Coro (11.407486, -69.677912)
658-002 La Vela Port (11.459244, -69.567860)

Author meltwaterfalls
#39 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 11:28 
the population of the Inscribed sites on the map is "complete"

Yep that is correct, here are the number of points per map at the moment Inscribed 1,033 (I'm not sure what the extra 2 are), Multi 4,026 T-list 1,358 (this isn't up to date though)

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the spreadsheet to hand but below are the sites from the UNESCO website that came back with blanks on the multiple locations. Then there are the others that are in multiple areas such as Middle Rhine that don't have any additional points, or sites like the Great Wall that have just two points. I think that will need a bit of thought into what is relevant, and try and come up with a suitable approach, for fear of getting a subjective list. Though I am not against the principle of it I just feel it needs a bit of thought before jumping in.

Known Unknowns:
Ancient Thebes with its Necropolis
Antigua Guatemala
Archaeological Landscape of the First Coffee Plantations in the South-East of Cuba
Archaeological Site of Carthage
Architectural Ensemble of the Trinity Sergius Lavra in Sergiev Posad
Atlantic Forest South-East Reserves
Bagrati Cathedral and Gelati Monastery
Belize Barrier Reef Reserve System
Buddhist Ruins of Takht-i-Bahi and Neighbouring City Remains at Sahr-i-Bahlol
Caves of Aggtelek Karst and Slovak Karst
Central Amazon Conservation Complex
Churches of Chiloé
Cliff of Bandiagara (Land of the Dogons)
Complex of Hué Monuments
Cultural Sites of Al Ain (Hafit, Hili, Bidaa Bint Saud and Oases Areas)
Dazu Rock Carvings
Discovery Coast Atlantic Forest Reserves
Ferrara, City of the Renaissance, and its Po Delta
Fort and Shalamar Gardens in Lahore
Forts and Castles, Volta, Greater Accra, Central and Western Regions
Frontiers of the Roman Empire
Gardens and Castle at Kroměříž
Gochang, Hwasun and Ganghwa Dolmen Sites
Gondwana Rainforests of Australia
Group of Monuments at Mahabalipuram
Gyeongju Historic Areas
Historic Areas of Istanbul
Historic Cairo
Historic Centre of Saint Petersburg and Related Groups of Monuments
Historic Ensemble of the Potala Palace, Lhasa
Historic Monuments of Ancient Kyoto (Kyoto, Uji and Otsu Cities)
Historic Monuments of Novgorod and Surroundings
Historical Monuments of Mtskheta
Imperial Palaces of the Ming and Qing Dynasties in Beijing and Shenyang
Islands and Protected Areas of the Gulf of California
Jesuit Missions of the Chiquitos
Jewish Quarter and St Procopius' Basilica in Třebíč
Kiev: Saint-Sophia Cathedral and Related Monastic Buildings, Kiev-Pechersk Lavra
Kunta Kinteh Island and Related Sites
Kutná Hora: Historical Town Centre with the Church of St Barbara and the Cathedral of Our Lady at Sedlec
Landscape of the Pico Island Vineyard Culture
Luther Memorials in Eisleben and Wittenberg
Medina of Essaouira (formerly Mogador)
Medina of Fez
Memphis and its Necropolis – the Pyramid Fields from Giza to Dahshur
Miguasha National Park
Minaret and Archaeological Remains of Jam
Monasteries of Haghpat and Sanahin
M'Zab Valley
Nubian Monuments from Abu Simbel to Philae
Ogasawara Islands
Olympic National Park
Prehistoric Rock Art Sites in the Côa Valley and Siega Verde
Residences of the Royal House of Savoy
Rila Monastery
Rock Art of the Mediterranean Basin on the Iberian Peninsula
Rock Drawings in Valcamonica
Salonga National Park
Samarra Archaeological City
Socotra Archipelago
State Historical and Cultural Park "Ancient Merv"
The Trulli of Alberobello
The Sundarbans
Three Castles, Defensive Wall and Ramparts of the Market-Town of Bellinzona
Tongariro National Park
Tropical Rainforest Heritage of Sumatra
Ujung Kulon National Park
White Monuments of Vladimir and Suzdal

Author Solivagant
#40 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 12:20 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Inscribed 1,033 (I'm not sure what the extra 2 are), Multi 4,026

When you say "multi" does that include every location - including 1 for each site with 1 location, 2 for each site with 2 locations ...... etc.
If that is the case then on my count 744 locations are "missing".
In your "data model" is a "site" different from a "location" and is the first location covered by the "site" or is it a "location" in its own right??
PS - On reflection I don't understand what you mean by a site coming back with "blanks" on the multiple locations". Is this totally or partially? e.g The Frontiers of the Roman Empire is well populated in UK but not in Germany and is certainly not "blank" overall. And if the Rock Art of the Mediterranean is blank then it alone accounts for 758 locations!! Are you treating a site/country combination as an entity for "blanks" rather than the total site across countries?? Unless we all understand the model we can be talking at cross purposes!

Author nfmungard
#41 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 14:38 
FYI: To prevent anyone from doing double work. Dealing with the unresolved ones listed by meltwaterfalls. Didn't know Carthage had SO many sub sites.

Author nfmungard
#42 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 16:47 
I found (some) coordinates for:

Ancient Thebes with its Necropolis,87,087-001,Temple of Karnak,"25.7188346,32.6572703",
Ancient Thebes with its Necropolis,87,087-002,Temple of Luxor,"25.699502,32.6390509",
Ancient Thebes with its Necropolis,87,087-003,Ancient Thebes Necropolis,"25.7401643,32.601411",
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-001,The area of the hills,,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-002,"Land of the ""Maison de la chasse au sanglier""",,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-003,El Mbazaa Field,,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-004,"Land of the ""Maison de la course des chars""",,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-005,Land of the Roman house,,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-006,Sector of Bir Messaouda,,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-007,Magon District,"36.8512444,10.3313702",
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-008,Sector of Dermech Basilica,,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-009,Sector of Bib Knissia Basilica,,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-010,District of the punic ports and of the tophet,"36.845036,10.3254533",
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-011,Zone of the entrance to the harbours,,
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-012,Basilica of Saint Cyprien,"36.8636951,10.3379725",
Archaeological Site of Carthage,37,37-013,Land of the Roman houses of Amilcar,"36.8641999,10.3413997",
"Ferrara, City of the Renaissance, and its Po Delta",733,733-002,Diamantina,"44.9005366,11.5218553",
"Ferrara, City of the Renaissance, and its Po Delta",733,733-001,Ferrara,"44.8377601,11.6195735",
Gardens and Castle at Kroměříž,860,860-001,Castle Garden and Castle,"49.3004788,17.3935273",Best guess: Canal and Po.
Gardens and Castle at Kroměříž,860,860-002,Pleasure Garden,"49.2977677,17.3833698",Castello+Estense
"Gochang, Hwasun and Ganghwa Dolmen Sites",977,77-001,Koch'ang Dolmen Site,"35.4417947,126.6522951",
"Gochang, Hwasun and Ganghwa Dolmen Sites",977,977-002,Hwasun Dolmen Site,"34.9775414,126.931551",
"Gochang, Hwasun and Ganghwa Dolmen Sites",977,977-003,Kanghwa Dolmen Sites,"37.773113,126.436912",
Gyeongju Historic Areas,976,976-001,Mt. Namsan Belt,"35.792049,129.2402067",
Gyeongju Historic Areas,976,976-002,Wolsong Belt,"35.8303314,129.2228903",
Gyeongju Historic Areas,976,976-003,Tumuli Park Belt,"35.8350285,129.2188992",
Gyeongju Historic Areas,976,976-004,Hwangnyongsa Belt,"35.8370203,129.2327555",
Gyeongju Historic Areas,976,976-005,Sansong (Fortress) Belt,"35.8416821,129.2582901",
Jewish Quarter and St Procopius' Basilica in Třebíč,1078,1078-001,The Jewish Quarter,"49.217688,15.8795739",Synagogue
Jewish Quarter and St Procopius' Basilica in Třebíč,1078,1078-002,The Jewish Cemetery,"49.2203901,15.8786284",
Jewish Quarter and St Procopius' Basilica in Třebíč,1078,1078-003,St Procopius' Basilica,"49.2168262,15.8730876",
Kutná Hora: Historical Town Centre with the Church of St Barbara and the Cathedral of Our Lady at Sedlec,732,732-001,Kutnà Hora: Historical Town Centre with the Church of St. Barbara,"49.9465996,15.2590214",
Kutná Hora: Historical Town Centre with the Church of St Barbara and the Cathedral of Our Lady at Sedlec,732,732-002,Cathedral Our Lady at Sedlec,"49.9598121,15.2900706",
Luther Memorials in Eisleben and Wittenberg,783,783-004,"Melanchthon's house
Wittenburg, Collegienstraße 60, Germany","51.8686259,12.6454752",
Complex of Hué Monuments,678,678-014,Tran Hai Fortress,"16.5550248,107.6552546",
Memphis and its Necropolis – the Pyramid Fields from Giza to Dahshur,86,086-001,Site of Memphis,"29.8447,31.2509",Crappy maps. Best guess: Memphis proper.
Memphis and its Necropolis – the Pyramid Fields from Giza to Dahshur,86,086-002,Pyramid fields from Giza to Dahshur,"29.9786768,31.1332188",Crappy maps. Best guess: Sphinx.
Rock Drawings in Valcamonica,94,94-001,Parco Comunale di Luine di Darfo-Boario Terme,"45.8912782,10.1816231",Best guess. Pretty close.
Rock Drawings in Valcamonica,94,94-002,Parco Archeologico Nazionale dei Massi di Cemmo,"46.0314484,10.3385183",
Rock Drawings in Valcamonica,94,94-003,"Parco Archeologico Comunale di Seradina-Bedolina, in Capo di Ponte","46.0358634,10.3449368",
Rock Drawings in Valcamonica,94,94-004,Parco Comunale di Sellero,"46.0577361,10.3341493",Best guess
Rock Drawings in Valcamonica,94,94-005,"Parco Pluritematico ""Coren de le Fate"" di Sonico","46.1578564,10.3613171",
Rock Drawings in Valcamonica,94,94-006,"Parco Nazionale delle Incisioni Rupestri di Capo di Ponte/ Riserva Naturale delle Incisioni Rupestri di Ceto, Cimbergo e Paspardo","46.0307687,10.3428661,15",

If you want the data, I can share the document with you. You can either try my forums name with random variations of known email providers (one with five letters, starting with g and ending on .com will do). Or ask Els.

Author nfmungard
#43 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 16:50 
Some remarks:
* Fun working with maps.
* Nice to see that not everything can be googled. Quite a few needed to be guessed via Google maps, Google earch, search and then judgement calls.
* Roman Limes -> Please shoot me. Not going to do that. I also doubt that it makes sense to add each and every site here.
* Quality of the maps provided by the state party varies a lot. I still can't tell what the difference between the two areas for Memphis are.

I will continue dealing with sites I have visited or plan to visit. So my selection will be a bit uneven ;)

Author jonathanfr
#44 | Posted: 11 Aug 2015 17:37 | Edited by: jonathanfr 
Hi, great job these cards. I wonder about that, as part of a trip to slide it in its travel case, it might be useful to make prints of some parts of the card, extract printable pdf versions example. Possible? Thank you

Author Solivagant
#45 | Posted: 12 Aug 2015 03:44 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Memphis,"29.8447,31.2509",Crappy maps. Best guess: Memphis proper.

I guess we will gradually develop a "technique" for discovering the coordinates. The State party provided maps seem rarely to be a good starting point!
For this one I used Google Maps "map view" to find the approx location then switched to "satellite view" and homed in on the "Alabaster Sphinx" just inside the main entrance/car park - titled and clearly visible in the picture!!
Then right click on the statue to get "what's here" and get the decimal coordinates
So - 086-001 Site of Memphis 29.849562, 31.254941
The 6th digit alters according to which part of the statue I click on but i guess we can try to be too accurate!!

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