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Urban continuity

 
 
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Author Assif
Partaker
#1 | Posted: 1 Jan 2016 07:54 | Edited by: Assif 
Urban continuity (35)
http://www.worldheritagesite.org/categories/category41.html

Berat/Gjirokastra
Caceres
Bath
Cordoba
Corfu
Damascus
Edinburgh
Evora
Graz
Istanbul
Algiers
Lviv
Lyon
Matera
Mexico City/Xochimilco
Naples
Ohrid
Acre
Jerusalem
Oporto
Prague
Rabat
Rome
Salamanca
Salzburg
Sana'a
Segovia
Split
Zanzibar
Alberobello (better in rural)
Toledo
Venice
Verona
Baku
Warsaw

Some notable examples of missing WHS: Budapest, Vienna, Paris, Byblos, Erbil, Cuzco, Riga, Seville.

Author Assif
Partaker
#2 | Posted: 1 Jan 2016 08:12 
Berat/Gjirokastra - seems to be one of the best examples of Ottoman architecture, so yes.
Caceres - not significant enough, no.
Bath - a unique example of thermal architecture from various periods, yes.
Cordoba - Unsure this would be the best category. The mosque is great, but I think Seville and Granada are better to represent urban Andalusia. No.
Corfu - Also unsure the continuity aspect is the most significant. Of regional significance only. No.
Damascus - Yes.
Edinburgh - unsure.
Evora - No.
Graz - No. Much more significant examples around.
Istanbul - Definitely a Yes. Byzantine-Ottoman continuity.
Algiers - Unsure.
Lviv - No. Only of regional significance.
Lyon - Unsure about the category. Anyway a No.
Matera - One of the best examples of cave dwelling on the list. I would give it a Yes.
Mexico City/Xochimilco - definitely a Yes. Aztec-Spanish continuity.
Naples - I love this city. It has lots of beautiful monuments, but I think other examples might be more significant. Maybe
Ohrid - unsure.
Acre - Crusaders-Ottoman continuity of significance, but lack of impressive architecture (for my taste). Maybe.
Jerusalem - Monuments of ancient Middle Eastern cultures, Roman, Byzantine, Mamluk, Ottoman, Colonial. Yes.
Oporto - unsure
Prague - Yes. Significant mediaeval and Art Nouveau monuments. A great ensemble.
Rabat - No.
Rome - Yes. Significant ancient Roman monuments as well as mediaeval and Baroque.
Salamanca - It is already in for Education. Apart from its university I don't consider it that unique.
Salzburg - Yes. Beautiful setting. Demonstrates continuity from mediaeval to Baroque.
Sana'a - unsure
Segovia - unsure
Split - Yes. A unique example of how a palace can evolve into a city.
Zanzibar - unsure.
Alberobello (better in rural) - A nice example of vernacular architecture. Yes.
Toledo - Unsure this would be the most appropriate category, but a Yes for the beautiful historical ensemble.
Venice - Yes.
Verona - No, others are more important, despite continuity from Roman to mediaeval.
Baku - No.
Warsaw - Yes, as a primary and standard setting example of a complete reconstruction.

Some notable examples of missing WHS:
Budapest - yes.
Vienna - yes.
Paris - yes.
Byblos - no.
Erbil - no.
Cuzco - yes.
Riga - no. As per discussion on Art Nouveau.
Seville - yes.

Author Durian
Partaker
#3 | Posted: 2 Jan 2016 21:23 
My opinion :
Berat/Gjirokastra - there are better example for ottoman architecture i.e. Sofronbalu --NO
Caceres - another roman town origin -- NO
Bath - masterpiece of Georgian architecture, but I prefer Edinburgh more than Bath -- MAYBE
Cordoba - Mezquita is really beautiful but the overall town of Cordoba is just fine, better to use Granada as represtative of Moorish Andalucia --NO
Corfu - Regional significant only --NO
Damascus - one of the oldest city in the world with many historical site YES
Edinburgh - Great city of many beautiful architecture from many period, medieaval to Georgian, prefer more than Bath YES
Evora - another Roman town origin NO
Graz - regional importance only, its slavic link is too niche NO
Istanbul - definitely great world city from Roman to Ottoman -- YES
Algiers - I am not sure for Kashbar, it is looked great for me -- MAYBE
Lviv - nothing special enough -- NO
Lyon - another beautiful french town with many historical fabrics -- NO
Matera - unique architecture indeed -- YES
Mexico City/Xochimilco - From Aztec to Mexican culture -- YES
Naples - Great European city that really different -- YES
Ohrid - I considered this as cultural landscape --NO
Acre - Historical significant but nothing impress me --NO
Jerusalem - for many reasons --YES
Oporto - interesting city development from wine port, nice historical center, great bridge, really unique city but for TOP 200 -- NO
Prague - percect example of all east European medieval city that continue development --YES
Rabat - nothing special enough except impressive city planing -- NO
Rome -- YES
Salamanca - nice university town, really beautiful but for TOP 200 --NO
Salzburg -- Nice historic center, but no for TOP 200 even the Sound of Music cannot change my mind --NO
Sana'a - really impresive architecture --YES
Segovia - great aqueduct and Alcazar is really amazing but there are many better representation for dream castle and aqueduct -- NO
Split - city developed in the ruin of Roman palace, very unique but still prefer Dubrovnik for this region -- NO
Zanzibar - stone house and port town for African - Arab Oman heritage --MAYBE
Alberobello (better in rural) - another unique architecture --YES
Toledo - Perfect representative of Iberian city development from medieval -- YES
Venice - YES
Verona - another beautiful city with Romeo and Juliet NO
Baku - regional significant nothing really unique imo --NO
Warsaw - don't know about this the story of reconstruction is interesting but the city core is just soso compare to other historical cities --MAYBE
Budapest - I personally not impress Budapest historical center, but the parliament and subway is really nice, I will go with --MAYBE
Vienna - for Habsburg heritage development-- YES
Paris - world class city and monuments-- YES
Byblos - are there anything significant remains --NO
Erbil - intresting citadel development, need more info --NO
Cuzco - Inca heritage YES
Riga - its Art Nouveau is too niche for unben continuity -- NO
Seville - Only three monuments, not the city that is WHS --NO

Author Assif
Partaker
#4 | Posted: 2 Jan 2016 23:19 
I would like to add Edinburgh and Sanaa to Yes and Segovia to no, following Durian.

Author echwel
Partaker
#5 | Posted: 3 Jan 2016 13:23 
Following the statements above I have only a few differences:

Bath/Edinburgh: I would give my vote to Bath. The period of urban continuity is longer (and imo thus a better example) and the thermal aspect puts in something extra

Cordoba: Andalucia is a hard nut to crack with Granada, Seville and Cordoba. I gae Granada a Yes in the medieval category, and Seville a maybe. Cordoba is a maybe too but tends to a Yes. Imo it ranks behind Granada but above Seville. I think the question is; Can we really leave Mezquita out?

Matera: No I think there are better examples of rock-cut architecture elsewhere

Warsaw: No I'd prefer Cracow architecturally and Carcassonne can fulfil the reconstruction part.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#6 | Posted: 3 Jan 2016 13:42 | Edited by: Solivagant 
A difficult category with a lot of good "higher middling" sites among a few World Class ones -and with 27 of the 35 coming from Europe.

The following European ones must be definite "YES"
Edinburgh, Istanbul, Prague, Rome, Venice

Leaving 22 – I have visited 19 of them and wouldn't suggest that any are not worth seeing – nearly every one is "fine" in its own way but they do create a degree of (near) duplication and Eurocentricty which we need to work hard at removing! Quite a lot of "Maybe" I am afraid! But most of these just need a "completeness check" when we have assembled our "YES" list to ensure that their "type" is covered elsewhere.

-Berat/Gjirokastra - NO – not the best "Ottoman" town
-Caceres – NO – Was there in late Sept- pleasant walled town with towers and stork nests etc but nothing really outstanding
-Bath – MAYBE– Its Georgian elements can be considered to be covered by Edinburgh but what about its "working" baths?
-Cordoba – MAYBE – Does the "Mezquita" get it in? But if I had to choose between it and Granada then the latter would get it.
-Corfu – NO – I don't think its "British" influences are enough!!
-Evora – NO – more "walls", Roman temples and examples of many different architectural styles - but not more than others
-Graz – NO – yet another well preserved old town in Central Europe –but, IMO nothing to raise it above the others
-Lviv – NO – but I last visited it over 50 years ago and really remember very little and can't be absolutely sure whether that means there isn't much there. But how many "central European" multi ethnic cities do we need?
-Lyon – NO – nicely situated but not outstanding in comparison with other European cities
-Matera – MAYBE - There are numerous other "rock cut" structures on the list – and even"Underground cities" (E.g Derinkuyu in Cappadocia) But I feel that this is the best in providing a wider townscape of over and underground structures and still occupied (even if often by "!tourist" businesses!
-Naples – YES – Almost fitted my top 5 European above
-Ohrid – NO – A very "strange" nomination which mixes together lots of different aspects –not sure it really fits here.
-Oporto – MAYBE – depends on whether any other "Portuguese Iberia" sites get in? That is its main claim as far as I am concerned
-Salamanca – MAYBE – I found that the combination of the Cathedrals AND the University AND the overall cityscape all added up. I know they are different but I can't choose between this and Toledo
-Salzburg - YES - as per others
-Segovia – NO - has a very fine aqueduct and Alcazar but these are represented elsewhere and otherwise its cityscape isn't so special.
-Split - MAYBE - A fine collection of Roman all the way through to Mediaeval, Renaissance and Baroque. And well located. Might just get in?
-Alberobello – MAYBE – (even if it doesn't really belong in this category!) – Dry stone structures have been common across history and geography amd "need" to be re[sented on our reduced list - ("Settlements composed of stone-built houses, often using the drystone technique, are not uncommon round the Mediterranean - in the islands of the Aegean, for example, the aamassi of Pantelleria, the Istrian peninsula, Menorca, or in some parts of the Maghreb" ICOMOS). The Nomination/evaluation makes much of the technique origins in "pre-history" but I was surprised to discover on investigating that most of the "Trulli" on view are 19th C and the 17th C is probably the earliest. However they are both "reresentative" of the technique and also create an "iconic landscape".
-Toledo - YES – its location, size and range of structures and periods give it an edge over others on this list
-Verona – NO – nice Arena and of course "that" balcony. There are quite a lot of the former on the List and the Balcony's "legend" doesn't quite cut it!
-Baku – NO – Perhaps shouldn't be discussed among the European sites but there are plenty of other "Central Asian" type cities on the List and this, IMO, isn't special enough
-Warsaw – NO – ok it is a fine reconstruction but I am not convinced that is a reason to choose it – more importantly does it as a city add to others in the region?

So, having located the bar at a particular height for Europe, how to make sure that it is set equally for non-Europe!
Again, I think there are 3 absolute certain YES - Damascus, Mexico and Jerusalem
Leaving -
-Algiers – NO - . Have visited. The inscription is for the Kasbah rather than the wider mix of old and colonial (ie "Continuity"). Its very poor condition tells against it and there are a fair number of Kasbahs/Medinas on the list – and .eg Marrakesh at least is going to be chosen by us. OK this one is nicely located a "hillside" at a "port" which has its own significant long term history. But its genuinely "historic" buildings are very hidden if they still exist at all – e.g The Beys Palace"?
-Acre - NO - Akko's main value relates to its crusader remains - fort, walls, tunnel etc rather than to its wider inhabited merits - yes it has a small area of souks, khans and a mosque but I don't think they are enough
-Rabat - NO - I still feel that this is a "contrived" site to try to give Morocco's capital a look in as well as the nearby cities of Fez, Meknes etc
-Sanaa - YES - The words "unique" and "outstanding" really do apply to this ensemble
-Zanzibar - NO - We already have Kilwa to represent the earlier period of the Swahili Coast and the influences of, inter alia, Portugal and Oman. Zanzibar's more famous buildings are 19th C - Palace of Wonders, Livingstone's house and Old Dispensary. It is a nice place to visit but i feel it has a greater footprint in the imagination than its remains actually justify .

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#7 | Posted: 3 Jan 2016 14:14 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Solivagant:
The following European ones must be definite "YES"
Edinburgh, Istanbul, Prague, Rome, Venice

Mexico City - "Aztec-Spanish continuity" - Assif
Cuzco - Incan-Spanish continuity
Toledo "Its location, size and range of structures and periods give it an edge over others on this list" - Durian
Sana'a - "The words "unique" and "outstanding" really do apply to this ensemble" - Solivagant
Damascus - "One of the oldest city in the world with many historical site" - Durian
Jerusalem - "Monuments of ancient Middle Eastern cultures" - Assif

Author fr4nc1sc4
Partaker
#8 | Posted: 4 Jan 2016 04:18 
my selection:

Bath
Corfu
Damascus
Edinburgh
Graz
Istanbul
Algiers
Naples
Jerusalem
Prague
Rabat
Rome
Salzburg
Venice
Verona
Warsaw

Author clyde
Partaker
#9 | Posted: 7 Jan 2016 11:36 
My selection:

Berat/Gjirokastra
Damascus - Maybe, depends on the current situation and if there's anything significant left.
Edinburgh - Maybe
Istanbul
Ohrid - Maybe
Jerusalem
Oporto - Maybe
Prague
Rome
Sana'a
Segovia
Alberobello
Toledo - Maybe
Venice
Verona - Maybe
Baku - Maybe
Budapest
Vienna
Paris
Cuzco - Maybe
Riga - Maybe
Seville

Most sites marked as maybe, I'll most probably not choose for top 200 (some very difficult to leave out indeed)

Author Assif
Partaker
#10 | Posted: 28 Jan 2016 18:14 
This one needs a summary.

Author Durian
Partaker
#11 | Posted: 28 Jan 2016 23:19 | Edited by: Durian 
Summary

6 Vote
Istanbul
Jerusalem
Prague
Rome
Venice
Sana'a

5 Vote
Damascus
Toledo

4 Vote
Mexico
Alberobello
Edinburgh
Vienna
Paris
Cuzco

3 Vote
Bath
Salzburg
Naples

2 Vote
Berat
Matera
Budapest
Seville

1 Vote
Split
Corfu
Graz
Algier
Rabat
Verona
Segovia

Author elsslots
Admin
#12 | Posted: 30 Jan 2016 03:06 
Durian:
2 VoteBeratMateraBudapestSeville

To stay with the logic applied at the other categories, these should be italic too (Maybe's with more than 1 supporter).

I'll bring these over to the main summary page at http://www.worldheritagesite.org/allbyrank.php

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#13 | Posted: 30 Jan 2016 03:37 | Edited by: Solivagant 
So you haven't voted on this category Els??

We currently have 7 people voting - Durian, Assif, Echwel, Solivagant, Winterkjm, fr4 and Clyde

But I am not quite sure what Winterkjm intended by quoting my comment "The following European ones must be definite "YES" Edinburgh, Istanbul, Prague, Rome, Venice" and THEN adding 6 others- surely he meant to vote "Yes" for Edinburgh, Istanbul, Prague, Rome and Venice? I can't believe that he intended none of these to be a YES.

In that case e.g Edinburgh has Yes from Durian, Assif, Solivagant, Winterkjm, fr4nc1sc4 = 5

Author elsslots
Admin
#14 | Posted: 30 Jan 2016 12:49 
Solivagant:
So you haven't voted on this category Els??

Are you expecting me to push Edinburgh over the threshold?

My choice, mostly based on personal experiences when visiting these sites:
Berat/Gjirokastra
Damascus
Edinburgh
Istanbul
Lyon
Mexico City/Xochimilco
Naples
Jerusalem
Rome
Sana'a
Zanzibar
Toledo
Venice

Author Colvin
Partaker
#15 | Posted: 30 Jan 2016 23:53 
To keep this quick, I'll only put a summary for any site I choose that no one else has chosen or given a summary for. Here are my picks:

Budapest
Cuzco
Damascus
Edinburgh
Istanbul
Mexico City and Xochimolco
Old City of Jerusalem
Paris
Prague
Rome
Sana'a
Seville
Stone Town of Zanzibar -- represents the fusion of Arab, African, Indian, and European cultures on the East African coast
Toledo
Venice
Vienna

Solivagant:
We already have Kilwa to represent the earlier period of the Swahili Coast and the influences of, inter alia, Portugal and Oman. Zanzibar's more famous buildings are 19th C - Palace of Wonders, Livingstone's house and Old Dispensary. It is a nice place to visit but i feel it has a greater footprint in the imagination than its remains actually justify .

Maybe Zanzibar does have ahold of my imagination, but the 19th century sights should be just as important to consider as the historical Arab-African sights in this urban continuity category. The nomination file specifically does mention Livingston's efforts to end slavery, so it recognizes the more current history as well.

BTW, I'm not voting for it, but Warsaw was missing from the summary above (I believe it had two votes).

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