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Mediaeval European

 
Author Assif
Partaker
#1 | Posted: 11 Dec 2015 15:03 | Edited by: Assif 
Mediaeval European (45)
http://www.worldheritagesite.org/categories/category35.html

Albi
Palermo
Arles
Assisi
Avignon
Avila
Bamberg
Banska Stiavnica
Bardejov
Bolgar
Brugge
Budapest
Krumlov
Cracow
Cuenca
Dubrovnik
Gammelstad
Granada
Guimaraes
Kotor
Kutna Hora
Longobards
Mudejar Aragon
Novgorod
Berne
Provins
Quedlinburg
Goslar
Regensburg
Rhodes
San Gemignano
Santiago de Compostela (City)
Seville
Siena
Sighisoara
Spiss
Strasbourg
Tallinn
Telc
Torun
Bremen
Trogir
Svaneti
Vienna
Vilnius

Author clyde
Partaker
#2 | Posted: 11 Dec 2015 16:24 
My selection:
Palermo (Arab Norman influence)
Assisi
Bamberg
Bruges
Budapest
Cracow
Dubrovnik
Granada
Kotor
Mudejar Aragon
Siena
Tallinn
Telc
Vienna

Author Assif
Partaker
#3 | Posted: 11 Dec 2015 16:38 | Edited by: Assif 
This is a tricky category. On the one hand to be fair we would have to cut it down extensively, on the other hand there are so many sites. In fact many of the sites in the categroy Urban Continuity also have significant parts of their OUV attributed to their mediaeval core.

My selection:

Palermo - Don't know it enough, but seems impressive, a maybe.

Assisi - We already have it as a church. Its most significant attributes are the frescoes not the mediaeval architecture, so a no here, a yes for the church.

Avignon - A maybe for the monumental Papal Palace.

Brugge - A definite yes, a beautiful, coherent mediaeval core of a once significant city.

Budapest - I would certainly choose Budapest, but for its urban continuity and 19th century architecture. So a yes, but not here.

Cracow - Yes, a significant city with a well preserved mediaeval core.

Dubrovnik - Same justification as Brugge, a yes.

Gammelstad - A maybe for the interesting phenomenon of a Sunday town. Unsure about the choice though.

Granada - Yes for the Alhambra.

Kotor - A maybe for the landscape, I think it would have fitted much better as a continuing CL.

Novgorod - Yes. To represent Russian mediaeval towns.

Goslar - Yes. A good German example, although if I had to choose between it and Strasbourg I would choose the latter. Goslar I would choose anyway for its mines.

Rhodes - Yes, for Crusaders architecture.

San Gemignano - Yes, for the towers.

Santiago de Compostela (City) - Yes, for the cathedral and religious significance.

Seville - Yes, for the cathedral and moorish remains.

Siena - Yes. Iconic.

Strasbourg - Yes, for the cathedral and half timbered houses.

Tallinn - Maybe.

Svaneti - Yes for the tower houses, although not strictly speaking European.

Vienna - Yes, but not here, similar to Budapest better for the later architecture (Baroque, historicism, Art Nouveau) than for its mediaeval architecture.

Author elsslots
Admin
#4 | Posted: 14 Dec 2015 12:34 | Edited by: elsslots 
I'd like to try to find some 'rationale' to base the selection on.

I think we should include at least some cities that were important during the Middle Ages because of size, and have become WHS:
- Cordoba (classified under Urban continuity but 'built in the 8th century' , started to grow over 100,000 in 800)
- Florence (is classified as post-medieval, but was 'built' in the 14th and 15th century). Had ca. 94,000 inhabitants
- Granada: 165,000 around 1450.
- Istanbul (is classified under Urban Continuity and probably belongs there, but was important in European medieval history as Constantinople). One of the biggest cities throughout the Middle Ages.
- Palermo (150,000 in 1200)
- Paris (is classified as post-medieval, but important parts were 'built' in the 12th) – had 200,000 inhabitants in 1348
- Venice (classified under urban continuity but 'built in the 11th century', had 110,000 inhabitants around 1300)

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_urban_community_sizes#Middle_Ages

And another angle: capital or main cities representing Medieval Great Powers
- Aachen Cathedral – representing the Frankish empire (under cathedrals)
- Cracow – representing the Jagiellon dynasty
- Vatican – representing the Papacy (under Christian)
- Palermo – representing Kingdom of Sicily & Normans
- Toledo – representing Kingdom of Castile (under urban continuity but built in 13th century)
- Venice – representing the Medieval Venetian Republic (under urban continuity)
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medieval_great_powers#Medieval_Europe

Most of the remaining places in this category (and there are many) seem to have been 'only' regional centers or places of minor importance in their time.

Author fr4nc1sc4
Partaker
#5 | Posted: 15 Dec 2015 01:59 
my selection:

Palermo
Assisi
Brugge
Budapest
Cracow
Granada
Rhodes
Santiago de Compostela (City)
Siena
Vienna

Author echwel
Partaker
#6 | Posted: 15 Dec 2015 07:35 
"Florence (is classified as post-medieval, but was 'built' in the 14th and 15th century). Had ca. 94,000 inhabitants"

Florence is best known for its Renaissance architecture. Yes, I agree it was built in the 14th century but that's commonly recognized as the starting point of the renaissance in Italy. There is a consensus that the Renaissance began in Florence. It's a city of Renaissance art which is a very prominent difference between medieval art. So I don't know about adding Florence in the category "Medieval European"

As I think of medieval I'd like to think about places where there is a significant part of the buildings left which are from medieval origin. For that reason I would exclude Paris as well because it's widely known for its grand Hausmann boulevards. Although less important in France my vote would go to Provins. Its explicitly inscribed for its role during medieval times. The faires increased international trade and were an inspiration for Hanse. Besides that, the upper town and ramparts are certainly capable of giving you a mediaeval feeling.

That said, a feeling is of course very subjective and will probably be different for everybody. In fact, for France, you could just as easily make a case for Avignon because of the pope's palace or Routes of Santiago de Compostela in France because of its pilgrimage. The pilgrims started walking in early 11th century and played a key role in "in religious and cultural exchange and development during the later Middle Ages".

Author kintante
Partaker
#7 | Posted: 15 Dec 2015 07:37 
My selection:

Assisi
Avila
Brugge
Krumlov
Quedlinburg
Rhodes
Siena
Telc

Author echwel
Partaker
#8 | Posted: 15 Dec 2015 12:49 
It´s Always hard to judge about sites you haven´t visited. But than again, if we would all think like that we could never make a `best of` list because none of us visited all. So, here are 2 more cents.

Albi - N: I would say one medieval town per country should be enough. Its main feature is its cathedral and I think there are enough of those structures on the list.

Palermo - Maybe: Missed that one when we were in Sicily last year. A serial cathedral site. It's not on the list as a medieval town so that's where I have my doubts. If we wanna show those aliens medieval Europe I'd prefer to show the whole picture. Than again, Palermo is representative for the cultural exchange of all the different people who ruled the island which does make it interesting... I still think I prefer Sienna

Arles - N: Liked it very much but my judgement could be a biased because of the absint... Definitely in my 200 but not for its medieval appearance rather its Roman heritage and urban continuity.

Assisi - N: In for its church but not in this category for the medieval thing. As a town I'd prefer Sienna

Avignon - Maybe: size and importance are probably larger than Provins.

Avila - N: size and importance are less than others in Spain

Bamberg - Maybe: It's either this one or Goslar for me. On a personal note, our experience in Goslar was rather romantic with the whole town covered in snow. This was in big contrast with Bamberg which we visited on a grey summerday. That wasn't the only bad thing though, during our visit we witnessed a terrible car accident. We still feel sick thinking about it. That said, its Rauchbeer, size and importance are for me in favour of Bamberg.

Banska Stiavnica - ? I really don't know much about this medieval mining town but It would be arrogant to exclude it for that reason.

Bardejov - Maybe: a completely preserved medieval town plan and its ramparts are a pro. If this one is in than it would mean Banska Stiavnica is out.

Bolgar - N Novgorad gets my vote, a pilgrimage site for muslims would make the list more diverse though

Brugge - Y I'll second Assif

Budapest - N Like I said about Paris, not known for its medieval appearance so not in this category

Krumlov - Y a personal favourite. Definitely a medieval feeling. Nicely preserved. (would be late Middle Ages though)

Cracow - Y size and importance does matter!

Cuenca - N: size and importance are less than others in Spain

Dubrovnik - Y iconic

Gammelstad - N: nice but no

Granada - Y Definitely, medieval moorish town but the Alhambra would have made it on its own

Guimaraes - Maybe. Architecture and significance are a pro

Kotor - N I think Dubrovnik represents the Balkan just fine

Kutna Hora - N Sorry but my vote goes to Krumlov

To be continued...

Author echwel
Partaker
#9 | Posted: 15 Dec 2015 15:02 
Longobards - Maybe "They marked the transition from Antiquity to the European Middle Ages, drawing on the heritage of Ancient Rome, Christian spirituality, Byzantine influence and Germanic northern Europe". A bit like Palermo really. I have mu doubts but they do represent an important part of history not very well covered by other sites.

Mudejar Aragon - N: Although I certainly understand the reason of inscription I wouldn't rank them on their architectural feature as top 200. Besides that, some are 16th century which imo doesn't count as medieval.

Novgorod - Y Russia deserves a place in here

Berne - N High on my personal wish-to-visit-list but I just don't think it's important enough. Also, I have some doubts if there's enough medieval left.

Provins - Maybe see my comments above.

Quedlinburg - N Nice but similar to Goslar or Strasbourg.

Goslar - Maybe see my comments above

Regensburg - N see my comments above

Rhodes - Maybe It's a long time since I've been there but the ramparts impressed me, definitely mediëval feeling. Known for the crusades.

San Gimignano - N: size and importance are less than others in Italy

Santiago de Compostela (City) - N: I think the routes represent the important medieval pilgrimage better.

Seville - Maybe: Every rule has its exception and Seville would certainly qualify. Would make it in my list of gothic cathedrals and the Alcazar is definitely superb. But tan again; there are enough cathedrals on the list and the Alhambra already covers the Moorish part. It does feel a bit strange though to not include this worldclass site.

Siena - Y: It would be my choice of a medieval town in Italy. Of all the cathedrals I've seen this one impressed me the most. Also the authentic look of the town really pleased me.

Sighisoara - Maybe: Not sure about its importance but I have a soft spot for this one

Strasbourg - N see my comments above

Tallinn - Maybe It does have a very nice/authentic core but choices have to be made

Telc - N Not medieval but renaissance imo, too small. Krumlov already stole my heart

Svaneti - Maybe I said no to Regensburg and San Gimignano so maybe I should give this one a go

Vienna - N Like Budapest. Not in this category

Vilnius - N If the Baltics have to be represented it would be my choice to include Tallinn.

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#10 | Posted: 21 Dec 2015 16:49 
I just read through echwel's comments and would essentially come to the same conclusion. My only point of deviation is the complete opposite experiences with Goslar and Bamberg. Apart from that I am a plus one on all of the recommendations. I would just firm up the support for Tallinn from a maybe to a yes

My only concern is is that too many sites for medieval Europe. c.14 from 45 is within the 40% but maybe this is a category where a strong cull could tackle the lists eurocentrism?

Author Assif
Partaker
#11 | Posted: 21 Dec 2015 16:57 | Edited by: Assif 
meltwaterfalls:
but maybe this is a category where a strong cull could tackle the lists eurocentrism

I fully agree but I wouldn't worry about that too much right now. Once we establish the three categories (yes, maybe, no) it looks we would need to further chop the maybe list by about a half. This would allow us to give non-European sites some corrective discrimination.
We would also need to control our yes list once it is fully compiled (before handling the maybe list) to check it for eurocentrism.

Author Durian
Partaker
#12 | Posted: 21 Dec 2015 22:43 | Edited by: Durian 
I will vote for:
- Siena, one of most beautiful and best preserved medieval town
- San Gimignano, its iconic towers are really stunning, a great repetitive of medieval village.
- Bamberg, really stunning overall medieval preservation with very few later addition.
- Dubrovnik, really well preserved represent maritime medieval Europe very well.
- Granada, Moorish deserve a place in European history and representation in Top 200.
- Rhode, for Crusader architecture

I will no for (sorry):
- Novgorod, apart of its impressive wall, inside Kremlin is really later addition, few medieval structures remain. For nearby churches and monasteries I could not find why its more special than similar old Russian cities eg. Yaroslavl, Suzdal or Vladimir.

Author elsslots
Admin
#13 | Posted: 21 Dec 2015 23:49 
Summarizing:

Albi
Palermo - representing Kingdom of Sicily & Normans
Arles
Assisi - already a maybe for its basilica, seems to be repeated here
Avignon
Avila
Bamberg - really stunning overall medieval preservation with very few later additions
Banska Stiavnica
Bardejov
Bolgar
Brugge - beautiful, coherent mediaeval core of a once significant city.
Budapest - better in different category
Cesky Krumlov - medieval feeling, nicely preserved
Cracow - a significant city with a well preserved mediaeval core.
Cuenca
Dubrovnik - really well preserved, represents maritime medieval Europe
Gammelstad
Granada - for the Alhambra and to represent Moorish history
Guimaraes
Kotor
Kutna Hora
Longobards
Mudejar Aragon
Novgorod - To represent Russian mediaeval towns.
Berne
Provins
Quedlinburg
Goslar
Regensburg
Rhodes - for Crusader architecture
San Gimignano - for its iconic towers are really stunning, a great repetitive of medieval village.
Santiago de Compostela (City) - for the cathedral and religious significance
Seville
Siena - the choice of a medieval town in Italy
Sighisoara
Spiss
Strasbourg
Tallinn
Telc
Torun
Bremen
Trogir
Svaneti - for the tower houses
Vienna - but better in different category
Vilnius

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