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Ukraine

 
 
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Author winterkjm
Partaker
#1 | Posted: 13 Feb 2022 13:01 | Edited by: winterkjm 
All "probable" routes of a Russian Invasion in Ukraine include Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and/or Odessa. Hopefully, the tension de-escalates and diplomacy wins. However, capturing everything up to the Dnieper River and "landlocking" Ukraine by capturing Odessa and the Black Sea Coast to Moldova remains a potential aim of the Russian Federation (if intelligence reports are believed).

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-intel-nine-probable-russian-routes-ukraine-full-scale-n1288922

Major Ukraine Tentative List Sites at Risk of Russian Seizure
- Historic Centre of Chernihiv, 9th -13th centuries (Center related to Kyivan/Ancient Rus, mentioned in Putin Op-ed below)
- Derzhprom (the State Industry Building) (briefly, parts of Kharkiv were under separatist control in 2014)
- Historic Center of the Port City of Odessa (Odessa named a "Key Target" of Russian Invasion)

"Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians are all descendants of Ancient Rus, which was the largest state in Europe. Slavic and other tribes across the vast territory – from Ladoga, Novgorod, and Pskov to Kiev and Chernigov – were bound together by one language (which we now refer to as Old Russian), economic ties, the rule of the princes of the Rurik dynasty, and – after the baptism of Rus – the Orthodox faith. The spiritual choice made by St. Vladimir, who was both Prince of Novgorod and Grand Prince of Kiev, still largely determines our affinity today."July 2021 Article by Vladimir Putin "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians"

I am not seeking a political discussion regarding Russia and Ukraine, simply I wanted to highlight the cultural heritage sites that would be at risk here. Moreover, staking a claim about which cultural heritage (or land) is Ukrainian or Russian remains part of the broader geopolitical struggle between the two nations and NATO.

Author Ostap1983
Partaker
#2 | Posted: 14 Feb 2022 12:13 
I am more concerned about Kyiv as already inscribed- in case if war commence I have no doubts it would cause heavy city fights and imminent danger to UNESCO heritage.

Author barabanov
Partaker
#3 | Posted: 16 Feb 2022 01:29 
You probably refer to very aggresive information campaign lead by the USA concerning "invasion". End of January, Mid-February, 16 February, during Olympic games, before Raspoutitsa, etc. were indicated by the US officials (not Ukranian, not European, not Russian) as the invasion dates. Let's wait several days more and you will see there is no any invasion. It is amazing that country located some 9,000 km away from Ukraine each day is announcing this invasion, to the point that even Ukraine started to refute these. Few cents on US intelligence: the world is still waiting for the confirmation of wearpons of mass destruction in Iraq as shown in infamous tube by Powell - there was reall loss of UNESCO heritage in Iraq as a result of what followed next. The truth is that Ukraine is now in the center of gloomy geopolitical games, and neither Russia, no Ukraine or USA are fluffy white rabbits in this crisis. You probably see the situation based on how this conflict is presented by US media, I live in Russia, do not support Putin at all, but I consider that some security demands to the west are grounded. Russia is creating threats in order to be heard, America is answering with information war. But be sure there will be no any invasion and destruction to the heritage.

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#4 | Posted: 16 Feb 2022 01:37 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Fair point and as stated I wish to have no political discussion. I do think Iraq is irrelevant based on the fact that the so-called "intelligence" from that time period was used to justify a terrible war. Today, the intelligence being declassified is to prevent one. I absolutely hope wholeheartedly that you are correct that there will be no invasion or damage to the cultural heritage of Ukraine.

Author Zoe
Partaker
#5 | Posted: 16 Feb 2022 11:15 
Best is to ignore all this crap and let it go away as usual. It's only a big thing because the media makes it a big thing and people buy into it.

Author tsunami
Partaker
#6 | Posted: 18 Feb 2022 11:33 | Edited by: tsunami 
First, let us not forget that Russia has a history of invasion even recently (1980, 2008, 2014). Second, in my view, threat is an invasion of human soul. I wonder if any Russian people, except Putin, feel threatened by expanding NATO.

I went back to Chernihiv in early December 2021, with intent to stay there for another 3 months. But upon hearing about the Russian military activities even near Chernihiv, I felt Chernihiv was no longer a good place to have a dacha and left Ukraine in early January 2022.

There are 2 main roads that intersect at the center of Chernihiv: Peace Ave. and Victory Ave. My dacha (just a rented apartment) is on Peace Ave.. 200 m from this intersection. Peace Ave. SE leads to Kyiv. Peace Ave. NW leads to Gomel in Belarus right after the border, outside which the military exercise is being held and a military hospital is being built. Victory Ave. NE leads to Klintsy in Russia right after the border where Russian troops are permanently stationed and where more troops have arrived recently. Victory Ave. SW leads to Kirovo in Belarus right after the border where another military exercise is being held.

Kirovo is also on Dnieper River and the closest point from Belarus to Kyiv. I would imagine they could even dispatch amphibian vehicles / submarines on Dnieper River from Kirovo straight to Kyiv. I hope it is just my imagination, as I have not heard such a prospect.

So they have mainly 3 ways to enter Chernihiv, from which they can march on the Peace Ave. extension toward Kyiv.

Now, if the Russian soldiers march on Peace Ave. past my dacha toward Kyiv, at 600 m from the intersection they will come across Chernihiv Dytynets Park where the two WH-nominated churches stand. One of these is the oldest church in Ukraine, Transfiguration Cathedral. To be more precise, this church stands 200 m from Peace Ave. in the park. It is a nice park where Russian soldiers might find respite.

I don't work for American media. Besides, for me it is all about precaution.

Author elsslots
Admin
#7 | Posted: 8 Mar 2022 06:06 
Ukraine: UNESCO statement following the adoption of the UN General Assembly resolution
https://whc.unesco.org/en/news/2411

Author elsslots
Admin
#8 | Posted: 8 Mar 2022 06:07 
"Statues wrapped in foam and fireproof material can be seen all around the historic city of Lviv, where the race is on to protect cultural treasures against possible Russian bombardment."
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220307-historic-ukrainian-city-scrambles-to-defend-heritage

Author winterkjm
Partaker
#9 | Posted: 12 Mar 2022 14:41 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Summary of International Efforts to Protect Ukrainian Cultural Heritage

"UNESCO is meeting on Wednesday and Thursday with Ukrainian cultural professionals, including World Heritage Site managers and museum directors, in order to determine what technical or financial assistance can be offered." - UN News

"The UN's cultural agency has warned that major historical sites in Ukraine are in danger of being damaged and even destroyed as Russia continues its offensive. City centres are seriously damaged, some of which have sites and monuments that date back to the 11th century," Lazare Eloundou, UNESCO's World Heritage Director said, speaking from Paris." - Euro News

Endangered heritage in Ukraine: UNESCO reinforces protective measures

Under Immediate Threat
- Kyiv: St. Cyril's and St. Andrew's Churches (WHS)
- Mykolayiv Astronomical Observatory (TWHS)
- Derzhprom (the State Industry Building) (TWHS)
- Historic Centre of Tchernigov, 9th -13th centuries (TWHS)
- Historic Center of the Port City of Odessa (TWHS)

Located within Russian-occupied Territory
[reports indicate Russia may seek to proclaim a "pro-Russian" Kherson People's Republic]

- National Steppe Biosphere Reserve "Askaniya Nowa" (TWHS)
- Archaeological Site "Stone Tomb" (TWHS)

Author Jurre
Partaker
#10 | Posted: 13 Mar 2022 13:44 

Author tsunami
Partaker
#11 | Posted: 13 Mar 2022 18:01 | Edited by: tsunami 
Kyivan Rus was an ancestor to Ukraine as well as to Russia. Destroying the monuments in Kyiv and in Chernihiv in particular constitutes wiping out Russia's own history.

The Ukrainians would say, "Please spell it Chernihiv." Tchernigov is the Russian spelling.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#12 | Posted: 14 Mar 2022 16:28 
tsunami:
Kyivan Rus was an ancestor to Ukraine as well as to Russia. Destroying the monuments in Kyiv and in Chernihiv in particular constitutes wiping out Russia's own history.

I find this "we are all dating back to the Kyivan Rus" narrative very ahistorical and showcasing the limits of applying nationalism to history.

The Kyivan Rus (the nobility) were originally neither Ukrainian, nor Russian, but Vikings. The word Rus possibly means Sweden (*Ruotsi).

The Rus didn't come to Kyiv for peaceful trade and probably were never "invited" to the place. The Vikings set up "trading posts" along the Dnieper River to trade with Constantinople. Their main trading good was not furs or honey, but slaves taken from the slavic population around those trading towns. Slave comes from Slav. Insofar, I find the glorification of the Kyivan Rus weird to say the least.

Author Astraftis
Partaker
#13 | Posted: 15 Mar 2022 19:11 
nfmungard:
tsunami:
Kyivan Rus was an ancestor to Ukraine as well as to Russia. Destroying the monuments in Kyiv and in Chernihiv in particular constitutes wiping out Russia's own history.

I find this "we are all dating back to the Kyivan Rus" narrative very ahistorical and showcasing the limits of applying nationalism to history.

Well, why?

All that you say is true and tested, and the (in modern terms) Swedish origins of Rus'/Россия/Ruotsi/Rootsi and maybe others too is certain. But I'd also like to add some layers of complexity: even before that, those lands were swept and inhabited by various steppe peoples, then the Slavic colonisation came, then as you said there was a big impulse by Viking traders/raiders that, at the same time with Turkic tribes of the region gave life to some forms of Statal entities, then another decisive, let's say "civilising" impulse came from the Byzantine empire, for example the new religion, as this is commonly seen as one of the most important turning points. And then history had it so that over the centuries the regional seat of power moved more notheastwards towards Moscow, and so on until our days. I hope that this sketch is valid, anyway: when we take a closer look history is always a mess.

This is just to come to the point that however intricated these historical events may be, it is still true that many Slavic people of that region regard Kyiv/Kiev under that light as the decisive starting moment of their history. And I think it's not so incorrect in the end: for example, even if the first rulers were Swedish vikings, in the end they were absorbed by the Slavic population, and this is how they identify themselves... even if they started as slaves! So I do not think there really is something ahistorical here: it is just privileging the aspect that today's society deems more important and downplaying the rest. Any starting point is subjective by nature. In my opinion, nationalism kicks in when one has to endure delirious discourses like "there lies the origin of our culture [possibly a true fact], so it has to belong to our nation and we have the right to take it back [a non sequitur]".

And actually this is the sole reason, in this disastrous situation, I can be slightly hopeful that, despite such alarmism, those sites will be spared; as tsunami said: nobody wants to wipe out their own history. In the end the only thing that counts is how those people perceive themselves and not how history actually unfolded. But since violence can be blind, I am still concerned.

Sorry if I may have sounded pedantic, it was not my intention, it was a tiring day (x_x)

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#14 | Posted: 16 Mar 2022 07:10 
Astraftis:
a closer look history is always a mess.

My point entirely. ;)

Author Ostap1983
Partaker
#15 | Posted: 17 Mar 2022 12:34 | Edited by: Ostap1983 
@tsunami, are you safe? Heard American citizen was killed in Chernihiv today..

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