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Portugal

 
 
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Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#1 | Posted: 27 Feb 2018 17:02 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
Realising it has been an unfeasibly longtime since I was last in Portugal I've started having a quick look for a potential re-visit sometime soon, and i noticed it doesn't have a relevant country thred yet, so here it is.

I know a fair bit about Portugal, and have a good handle on where to head so my motive isn't so much to get an idea, however if any one has itineraries they wanted to share with others or specific recommendations, they are always welcome.

However the great recent batch of reviews form Caspar Dechmann got me looking at their recently rejuvinated, but seemingly muddled T-List. There are a number of sites that cover the same thing, Lisbon could end up with EIGHT WHS if these all come to fruition, of course they won't.
But suggesting the city could end up with four inscribed sites doesn't seem too wild a consideration (Either Pombaline or Global City, the Route to Santiago extension and perhaps the Oeuvre of Alvaro Siza in addition to the already inscribed Belem).

There are quite a lot of undefined "concept" sites.

The weirdest one being Route of Magellan. First around the World, which is particularly odd as Magellan's route never involved Portugal (he left from Sanlucar near Donana NP).
The only places in Portugal mentioned in the nominations are museums or archives, perhaps we should locate the marker at one of those (38.754905, -9.156548 Arquivo Nacional Torre do Tombo), at the moment, logically but somewhat incongruously, it is in the Straights of Magellan, meaning the Portuguese map is zoomed out to show the whole world, or perhaps that desirable.
Though it does also mention that the nomination will include monuments so perhaps the Discoveries Monument (38.695979, -9.205386) in Belem would work for a location?

The Ensemble of Álvaro Siza's Architecture Works in Portugal, is also light on the specific buildings included, but does include a list of Municipalities and in the text there are a handful of buildings mentioned. I will try and dig down to see if I can get some sort of short list together. At the moment I have it as a T-List site I have sort of visited, be pretty sure I visited the Pavilhão de Portugal whilst waiting for a train at Oriente station in Lisbon.

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#2 | Posted: 1 Mar 2018 17:50 
I've had a dig down into that Alvaro Siza proposal and have created a list of 22 buildings that seem likley to be included.

The first ten are mentioned by name in the proposal, the next ten are major buildings in municipalities mentioned in proposal, and the last two are well known buildings that I would imagine would be included, but the details seem to be missing from the proposal. I have a fair few other buildings that I may try to hunt down as well, but I haven't quite pinned down yet:

Building/ Municipality/ Co-ordinates
Bank in Oliveira de Azeméis/ Oliveira de Azeméis/ 40.838560, -8.477313
Santa Maria church of Marco de Canavezes/ Marco de Canavezes/ 41.188560, -8.145385
Adega Mayor/ Campo Maior/ 39.050100, -7.094356
Piscina das Mares/ Leça da Palmeira/ 41.192778, -8.707778
Casa de Chá da Boa Nova/ Leça da Palmeira/ 41.203020, -8.715001
Beires House/ Póvoa de Varzim/ 41.385483, -8.762296
Bank in Vila do Conde/ Vila do Conde/ 41.353196, -8.741629
Casa Avelino Duarte/ Ovar/ 40.862790, -8.644060
Escola de Educação de Setúbal/ Setúbal/ 38.519986, -8.838166
Pavilion of Portugal in Expo'98/ Lisboa/ 38.765829, -9.095285
Baixa Chiado Masterplan and Metro Station/ Lisboa/ 38.710521, -9.142089
Faculty of Architecture, University of Porto/ Porto/ 41.150383, -8.636518
Aleixo Offices (Architectural Practice)/ Porto/ 41.149284, -8.649420
Sao Bento Metro Station/ Porto/ 41.145101, -8.610886
Serralves/ Porto/ 41.159789, -8.659602
Boavista Building/ Porto/ 41.162599, -8.667288
Quinta da Malagueira housing estate/ Évora/ 38.568738, -7.925359
Library of the University of Aveiro/ Aveiro/ 40.631181, -8.659829
Cuatro Casas/ Matosinhos/ 41.185350, -8.685082
Piscina da Quinta da Conceição/ Matosinhos/ 41.197126, -8.686788
Viera De Castro House/ Famalicao/ 41.405606, -8.541914
Revigrés/ Águeda/ 40.531731, -8.449006

Author Zoe
Partaker
#3 | Posted: 5 Apr 2018 14:49 
I don't know what they were thinking with the Magellan route. I also don't believe they are comparable to the trade routes mentioned which had actual towns for markets because these routes were used for a long time period.

Author Khuft
Partaker
#4 | Posted: 5 Apr 2018 15:10 
I think that the above-mentioned referenced locations are not the actually nominated sites. Torre do Tombo is the national archive of Portugal and only houses some documents related to Magellan. The Discoveries monument is linked more to Prince Henry the Navigator than to Magellan. Instead, I think that they will nominate Magellan's home town of Sabrosa in N Portugal. Magellan was after all Portuguese, although he sailed for the Spanish kings. At least that's based on this article where they interviewed the mayor of Sabrosa.
https://viagens.sapo.pt/planear/noticias/artigos/rota-de-magalhaes-com-485-mil-euros- para-iniciar-candidatura-a-unesco

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#5 | Posted: 13 Apr 2018 09:36 
Hi Zoe and Khuft thanks for this.

I was using those locations as a proxy, as no specific locations were actually named in the proposal for potential inscribed locations.

Though the Torre do Tombo Archive was the only place in Portugal mentioned so was used as a stand in for what may actually be proposed. The Spanish Archive named (Archivo de Indias) is actually already inscribed as part of the Seville World Heritage Site and contains the Treaty of Tordesillas inscribed on the Memory of the World Register. A potential Three for the Price of One!!

That article Khuft linked to in turn leads to this article about the Rede de Cidades Magalhânicas (World Network of Magellanic Cities)
World Network of Magellanic Cities:
This network constitutes an association of cities that share the historical memory of belonging to the route established by Magalhães or linked to it factually in the various continents:
Portugal: Lisbon, Sabrosa and Ponte da Barca
Spain Seville, San Luca de Barrameda and Tenerife
Argentina Ushuaia, Puerto de San Julián, Puerto de Santa Cruz and Provincial Government of Tierra del Fuego
Cabo Verde Praia
Chile Punta Arenas
Philippines Catbalogan City and Cebu City
Indonesia Tidore (Moluccas)
Uruguay Montevideo
Many other cities such as Rio de Janeiro, Cape Town, Getaria and Buenos Aires, among others, will soon join the RMCM.

Perhaps we can use that as the basis of the locations. I will go through and try to find relevant points in those cities.

It looks like they have also set up a full website, though it is rather empty, the oiginal article suggested thee was supposed to be a Meeting in December 2017 in Buenos Aires, but that doesn't seem to have taken place, or if it did it is missing from the website and twitter fed which went quiet in April 2017.

Author hubert
Partaker
#6 | Posted: 18 Apr 2018 12:28 
meltwaterfalls:
I've had a dig down into that Alvaro Siza proposal and have created a list of 22 buildings that seem likley to be included.

Thanks for the list and the coordinates, meltwaterfalls. Very helpful, I'm currently planning a trip to Portugal in May. Though I would not expect that the Alvaro Siza sites will be nominated in the near future, I'll try to include some of them in our itinerary. Would be a refreshing change between all these monasteries in Portugal. Many of the sites are in and around Porto, easy to include.
Mainly, the sites are used for their original purposes, no surprise, they were built in the 1960s or later. Thus, the private houses seem to be not accessible for visitors, no 'Alvaro Siza museum' so far, but I hope to get a glimpse of the interior of the bank and university buildings. The Serralves museum, the metro stations and the university buildings seems to be most rewarding.
And a few refreshing hours in the Piscina das Mares sounds also tempting.
Well, and the Expo'98 Pavillon in Lisboa (I'll definitely visit this area because of the Garo do Oriente by Calatrava).

Author Zos
Partaker
#7 | Posted: 4 May 2018 06:28 | Edited by: Zos 
meltwaterfalls:
Philippines Catbalogan City and Cebu City

Most likely sites from the Philippines are the following. The first 4 are mostly associative links with no/little built heritage except for commemorative structures.
- Homonhon Island: island where Magellan and his men first landed in the Philippines
- Poro, Camotes: Mentioned by Antonio Pigaffeta as one of the islands they have landed
- Mactan, Island Cebu: site where Magellan was killed by local chieftain, Lapu-lapu
- Limasawa Island, Southern Leyte: site of the first Catholic mass in the Philippines, initiating Christianity in the Philippines
- Santo Nino Basilica, Cebu City: The oldest church in the Philippines and houses the Child Jesus image given by Magellan to the local chieftains
- Magellan's Cross: Popular belief is the current cross houses some fragments of the original original one planted by Magellan's expedition. The site is right across the Basilica.

Most interesting sites are the Santo Nino Basilica and Magellan's cross as they have a clear built structure that is directly or indirectly linked to Magellan's voyage. It is even mentioned Portugal's nomination as part of the justification of Criterion IV regarding the festivities still practiced today as tribute to the Sto Nino relic. So would be safe to choose this as the Philippine component. Google Map location: 10.2940861,123.8999696

Limasawa and Mactan Island have high associative values but very difficult to identify the area to inscribe.

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#8 | Posted: 2 Jul 2019 10:59 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Ilya Burlak's review today of the T List site of "Historical Lisbon, Global City" reminded me that Lisbon currently has 2 overlapping T List entries. - that one added in Jan 2017 and also "Pombaline Lisbon" - originally added to Portugal's T List in Dec 2004 but, for some strange reason, also carried forward into the new T List of 2017.

It would seem that the "Historical Lisbon" entry was intended to replace the "Pombaline Lisbon" and that is confirmed in this article (in Portuguese) from April 2015 - when, it appears, the decision to go for something wider than the pure "Pombaline" area was made. (My review of that raised issues about where it would start and finish). Here is a translation of one section of the article -
"The mayor, who was speaking at the meeting today, added that the municipality will not resume the candidacy of the Baixa Pombalina to World Cultural Heritage of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), extending it earlier to other areas.
It was the municipal deputies who, instead of resuming the process, extended the area to [other] historic neighborhoods, not just Baixa," said Manuel Salgado, who answered questions raised by Social Democrat Antonio António Prôa, who stressed the importance of this application for "safeguarding the heritage".
This time, the application will include the "classification in a new category, in Historic Urban Landscapes," he said.
However, according to Manuel Salgado, this will only be possible after 2017, since Portugal is part of the UNESCO Heritage Committee until that year, which prevents the country from presenting applications.
According to this official, "the candidacy of Baixa and surrounding area is being worked by the services of the Chamber and is expected to be submitted by February 2018.""

The 2018 target has obviously slipped!!!
We adopt the policy of keeping "our" T List in line with that of UNESCO, so, as long as Portugal leaves both on its T List, then so should we - but it does appear that any future visits and reviews should take place against the background and description of "Historical Lisbon - Global City" rather than the older entry.
With 2 nominations this year, not including its Capital, Portugal would seem to have built up a "back log" of potential nominations whilst it denied itself any nominations during its WHC membership.

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#9 | Posted: 2 Jul 2019 14:17 
Oh interesting find Solivagant, thanks for flagging it up and distilling the salient points.

It always seemed like the most logical explanation that the Global City will replace the Pombaline proposal, at least this gives us some indication as to why they are still both there.

It still seems a little odd to me that with this renewed and expanded proposal they kept the Águas Livres Aquaduct as a separate nomination, but I guess from looking at water management sites that are getting inscribed they view it as another potential sites for the capital.

Author hubert
Partaker
#10 | Posted: 2 Jul 2019 17:26 | Edited by: hubert 
meltwaterfalls:
It still seems a little odd to me that with this renewed and expanded proposal they kept the Águas Livres Aquaduct as a separate nomination,

The Aqua Livres nomination goes far beyond the part of the aqueduct in Lisbon. The text of the T-list entry reads:
"the Águas Livres Aqueduct is characterised by its main section, known as the Main Aqueduct, which stretches over a distance of 14.256 km, and by a series of subsidiary aqueducts and head race tunnels that, together with the main section, comprise a total network of roughly 58 km."
and
"The Main Aqueduct, which begins at the Mãe de Água Velha, in the municipality of Sintra, and ends in the area of Amoreiras, in the parish of Santo António, in Lisbon, was fed by 58 separate water sources."

This website provides some more information:
http://www.epal.pt/EPAL/en/menu/water-museum/permanent-collection-and-associated-heritage/%C3%A1guas-livres-aqueduct

On my Portugal trip last year, I visited the Amoreira Reservoir, the Museo da Aqua, and the main Aqueduct. And I was at the starting point at Belas:
https://www.google.at/maps/place/38%C2%B047'33.1%22N+9%C2%B014'41.2%22W/@38.792603,-9.245561,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d38.7925167!4d-9.2447667?hl=de

My rating would be: thumbs down. But after the positive evaluation of Augsburg – who knows? Currently, water management seems to be a hot topic.

Author Zoe
Partaker
#11 | Posted: 3 Jul 2019 09:04 
Lol guess we have reviews for both now :)

Author Zos
Partaker
#12 | Posted: 20 Oct 2019 08:23 
I am planning a 10 day trip Portugal in end of Jan 2020. I will just use public transport and would like to optimise my trip to see most sites in Portuguese Mainland. Can anyone share some tips? My current plans are:
* Lisbon 4D/5N: One full day trip to Sintra. Day trip to Evora. A morning for Mafra. An afternoon for Belem. Remaining day for the rest of Lisbon.
- Are the T sites in Lisbon worth giving more time? I still plan to be back in Lisbon in the future to see Elvas and the Islands.
- Is a morning devoted for Mafra enough to appreciate (or not) is OUV? I am not into European castles and mostly this is only for the tick.
- Any suggestion on where (or which area in Lisbon) to stay?

* Coimbra 2D/3N: Guided day tour to the 3 monasteries (Alcobaca, Batalha, Tomar) from Coimbra.
- I know this is overloaded day trip but with guided tour and with all in one day, I can easily compare/each one and appreciate their value. Then morning exploring Coimbra.

* Porto 3D/4N in porto: Day trip to Braga and Guimarães. Day trip to Douro Valley. Another one possibly to Coa Valley.
- Is Douro Valley good to see in winter? Or it will just be grey and brown?
- If I visit Coa Valley, where is a good base with good public transport options?

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#13 | Posted: 20 Oct 2019 09:04 
Zos:
Portugal in end of Jan 2020

Expect some fairly terrible weather. I went a few years back after New Years and it was miserable.

Zos:
An afternoon for Belem. Remaining day for the rest of Lisbon.

Would be natural to combine both into one day.

Zos:
Is a morning devoted for Mafra enough to appreciate (or not) is OUV?

A non visit is enough to appreciate the non existing OUV. I think you need 1-2h for the tour. And then it's mostly being stuck in the bus.

Zos:
T sites in Lisbon worth giving more time?

Old town you will do anyhow. The museum is pretty bad. Never ventured to the NP South of Lisboa.

Zos:
Guided day tour to the 3 monasteries (Alcobaca, Batalha, Tomar) from Coimbra.
- I know this is overloaded day trip but with guided tour and with all in one day, I can easily compare/each one and appreciate their value.

Nice option. Not really overloaded, especially if you have a bus shuttling you around. In comparison, did it on my own by train, cab (50€) and bus and ended up in Nazare.

Zos:
Day trip to Douro Valley. Another one possibly to Coa Valley.

I think those two should be combined with an overnight in Coa. From Coa, not sure how you manage.

Author Zoe
Partaker
#14 | Posted: 20 Oct 2019 10:06 
Mafra is "just" a an average palace. Go inside the church for free to save yourself some time and money.

People visit Portugal in January? lol

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#15 | Posted: 20 Oct 2019 10:39 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zos:
Is Douro Valley good to see in winter? Or it will just be grey and brown?

Apart from getting the "tick", one goes to the Alto Douro Wine Region (the clue lies in the title!) for either/both
a. The Wine aspects
b. The scenery.
It is one of those WHS which gets ratings from 1* up to 5*****!!! And none of the 4 who give it 5* is from Portugal so we can't "blame" misplaced patriotism - it is just what we would call a "Marmite WHS" with widely varying opinions/experiences. Ilya Burlak gives it 4**** and stopped off to enjoy the Quintas. Els gave it 1* - no wine tasting and 2 visits Dec/Mar each connected with a visit to Coa as well. I gave it 2.5** and have visited it twice - self driving both times and also not at all interested in the Wine aspects. The road which follows the valley as much as possible - it is in fact very "up and down" - is rather fine (if not that high on the "spectacular" continuum) and would give a non-wino a good idea of the area (which has been flooded by dams so making a series of lakes which won't look their best unless you are very lucky to have a sunny day). The towns/villages on the way are not particularly "pretty-pretty" in S European comparative terms.
Unless you are particularly interested in the wine I would recommend giving it as little time as you can in December whilst still "seeing" it. A traverse would be enough.

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