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Author meltwaterfalls
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#16 | Posted: 30 Jun 2016 13:13 
I just noticed that Stage 13 of this year's Tour de France finishes at Chauvet Cave (well at the replica of it anyway).

Looks like they are trying to promote their investment!

Author Solivagant
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#17 | Posted: 30 Jun 2016 18:41 | Edited by: Solivagant 
meltwaterfalls:
Looks like they are trying to promote their investment!

And that promotion will be "costing" quite a lot.
3 years ago the estimate was that a bid of some 60k Euros was required to "buy" the rights for a stage finish of the T de F.
To this has to be added all the preparation and logistical costs which will be far higher.
World heritage inscription is "big business"!
See - http://inrng.com/2013/10/tour-de-france-route-selection-cost/

Author Durian
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#18 | Posted: 14 Feb 2017 19:57 | Edited by: Durian 
Paris - Ile de la Cite Project

The new development to revive Ile de la Cite is very exciting, new two bridges! glass floor square in front of Notre-dame! Cannot wait to hear what UNESCO will say on this.

http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/immobilier-btp/0211800173580-paris-le-grand -projet-de-hollande-pour-faire-revivre-lile-de-la-cite-2064925.php

Author jeanbon
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#19 | Posted: 24 Jul 2017 13:22 
Can't understand why Saint-Denis' Church is not supported by France, it's the begining of this kind of architecture, one of the most important necropolis in Europe, and a popular reputation in the history of France.

Author Solivagant
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#20 | Posted: 24 Jul 2017 15:33 | Edited by: Solivagant 
jeanbon:
Can't understand why Saint-Denis' Church is not supported by France,

Hi jeanbon, welcome to the Forum.

The following articles (all French sources) seem to give a pretty good set of reasons why the Basilica of St Denis has not to date been nominated by France. Preservation problems, authenticity, management and also the fact that it is generally accepted that Cathedrals are over represented on the "List" (See the article on Metz which is itself deliberately trying to find alternative "value" rather than major on its cathedral for its potential 2020 nomination - "Metz Royal and Imperial Power").

As for why "we", the "collected wisdom" on matters "World Heritage" didn't vote it onto the "List of Top 50 Missing"? Well it might have been an excess of Anglophones and a lack of Francophiles (We did give Carnac a place so we can't be that "anti" French! Though I would agree that it isn't the most significant "missing" site) - but I think it also had more to do with the feeling that Christian sites are over-represented on the list, including structures of approximately the same time period and style as the Basilica. If in top condition, St Denis might well overtake some of them but which existing French cathedral would you "give up" to allow St Denis onto the "List"?? (I know things don't "work" that way but that sort of approach concentrates the mind!)

http://www.saintdenismaville.com/la-basilique-royale-de-saint-denis-patrimoine-de-lhu manite/

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilique_Saint-Denis (In particular - the section "La dégradation de la basilique au XXIe siècle"!)

http://saintdenis-tombeaux.forumculture.net/t69-qu-attend-on-pour-classer-saint-denis -au-patrimoine-mondial-de-l-unesco

http://www.lefigaro.fr/culture/2012/11/22/03004-20121122ARTFIG00389-la-basilique-de-s aint-denis-sort-du-purgatoire.php

http://www.democratie-royale.org/article-association-pour-la-sauvegarde-de-la-basiliq ue-cathedrale-de-saint-denis-et-de-sa-necropole-royale-84256191.html

http://www.europe1.fr/culture/metz-espere-decrocher-son-inscription-au-patrimoine-mon dial-de-lunesco-2723938

Author Solivagant
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#21 | Posted: 24 Jul 2017 15:33 | Edited by: Solivagant 
[I have cancelled a mistaken "double" post!

Author jeanbon
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#22 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 04:53 | Edited by: jeanbon 
Solivagant:
Hi jeanbon, welcome to the Forum.The following articles (all French sources) seem to give a pretty good set of reasons why the Basilica of St Denis has not to date been nominated by France. Preservation problems, authenticity, management and also the fact that it is generally accepted that Cathedrals are over represented on the "List" (See the article on Metz which is itself deliberately trying to find alternative "value" rather than major on its cathedral for its potential 2020 nomination - "Metz Royal and Imperial Power").As for why "we", the "collected wisdom" on matters "World Heritage" didn't vote it onto the "List of Top 50 Missing"? Well it might have been an excess of Anglophones and a lack of Francophiles (We did give Carnac a place so we can't be that "anti" French! Though I would agree that it isn't the most significant "missing" site) - but I think it also had more to do with the feeling that Christian sites are over-represented on the list, including structures of approximately the same time period and style as the Basilica. If in top condition, St Denis might well overtake some of them but which existing French cathedral would you "give up" to allow St Denis onto the "List"?? (I know things don't "work" that way but that sort of approach concentrates the mind!)

Thank you for your welcome. :)

The cathedral has been recently renovated, and in any case Unesco could inscribe it despite of this situation, even put it on the list in danger, it's not really a problem.
I understand the idea that cathedrals are over represented, but it's not really the same thing. As it's written in your links, St Denis is the begining of the gothic architecture, i guess it's a relevant criteria according to Unesco. Metz or Rouen are not (yet) on the list, no problem. Bourges, Paris, Albi, Amiens, Chartres, Reims, Strasbourg and so on are on the list...These sites are less important in the history than St Denis (except maybe Reims?), that's why i don't understand this situation. :) These cathedrals wouldn't exist without St Denis...
And I don't understand well your last sentence...what do you mean?

Concerning the TOP 50 missing sites, i don't consider you are anti "French" (i hope no!) because of the lack of french sites. If we could imagine another kind of french site, we could say "french gardens" as persans ones. :)

Author Solivagant
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#23 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 05:39 | Edited by: Solivagant 
jeanbon:
The cathedral has been recently renovated, and in any case Unesco could inscribe it despite of this situation, even put it on the list in danger, it's not really a problem.

France can't be very confident or presumably it would try! In fact it is quite unusual to go for Inscription AND "In danger" at the same time. It usually only happens where a country is claiming that the site is in imminent danger (often for "political" purposes"!) or where the country/UNESCO feels that the dual listing will stimulate international action to help with preservation/reconstruction - e.g after a disaster or war. See the Connection for all sites which were inscribed and placed on the Danger List at the same time -
http://www.worldheritagesite.org/connection/Directly+in+Danger
Not a "developed" country among them! I am pretty sure that ICOMOS/UNESCO would tell France to "get its house in order" first - unless France needs international help to safeguard its national treasures?

jeanbon:
is the beginning of the Gothic architecture, i guess it's a relevant criteria according to Unesco

Yes it is a valid argument to put forward - but the "first" isn't always the "best" - perhaps a later "flowering" of a style could be regarded as more significant? And does the List need both the start of every significant style of architecture as well as the best later examples?

Author winterkjm
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#24 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 05:46 | Edited by: winterkjm 
We have at least 61 world heritage sites that represent Gothic Architecture. The Basilica of Saint-Denis does look exquisite, and probably would have been inscribed if it was nominated between 1978 - 1996, when most of the major Western European cathedrals were inscribed. Twenty years have passed and the era of inscribing cathedrals, while certainly not impossible, has long run its course (particularly for Western Europe).

In other words, the ship has already sailed. France has moved on. In fact, the French Tentative List pre-2010 is largely exhausted. Future inscriptions from France, will almost exclusively come from the recent tentative list nominations.

*I included the planned WHC Evaluation year in BOLD

The Marquesas Islands (2010)
2018 Chain of the Puys and fault of Limagne (2011)
2018 Nimes, Antiquity to the Present (2012)
Volcanic and forest areas of Martinique (2014)
2020 Metz Royal and Imperial, stakes of power, stylistic confrontations and urban identity (2014)
2019 The D-Day Landing Beaches, Normandy, 1944 (2014)
2018 Funerary Sites and Memorials of the First World War (West Front) (2014)
2019 Great Spas of Europe (2014)
The French Southern Territories National Nature Reserve (2016)
2019 The Alps of the Mediterranean (2017)
Nice, the new town born of tourism, or the invention of the Riviera (2017)
City of Carcassonne and its sentinel mountain castles (2017)

As you can see France has evolved in its approach to world heritage, its clear at this stage, serial nominations, transnational nominations, and overseas natural nominations have precedence. As Solivagant mentioned, it would be unlikely a single cathedral would be put forward or inscribed. The balance of the world heritage list remains Eurocentric, particularly in regards to perceived over-representation of European cathedrals, castles/fortifications, and palaces. These views are well-documented here on this forum and similar views are often referenced by ICOMOS and the World Heritage Committee.

Author jeanbon
Registered
#25 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 08:40 
Yes yes, i totally agree with your statements. France didn't sostain suitably the St Denis' file in 1996. France proponed too many files in the same time:
Canal du Midi (1996)
Sites mégalithiques de Carnac (1996)
Cathédrale de Saint-Denis (1996)
Rouen : ensemble urbain à pans de bois, cathédrale, église Saint-Ouen, église Saint Maclou (1996)
Château de Vaux-le-Vicomte (1996)
Les villes bastionnées des Pays-Bas du nord-ouest de l'Europe (1996)
Le massif forestier de Fontainebleau (1996)
Montagne Sainte-Victoire et sites cézaniens (1996)

That means it was just a proposal, not a completed file. It's a pity, and that's all i wanted to express.

One last point about "the "first" isn't always the "best""...
It's probably not the most "exquisite" site of Gothic art. What i mean is it's the first but not only (as it is explained in the novel of K.Follett, The pillars of the Earth), it's a necropolis, one of the biggest in Europe as Reims for example, it's a part of several centuries of the french History, it's a popular site (you can find St Denis in popular songs), you can include the Legion d'honneur building next to the cathedral which is also historically important, and so on ....No other cathedral shows the same richness. For me, it's just an assessment, nothing else, Bourges, Amiens or Chartres have less reasons to be inscribed on the list than St Denis. That's it, that's life :)

For the nominations you are talking about winterkjm, I could understand the inscription of: The Marquesas Islands (2010) The French Southern Territories National Nature Reserve (2016), but the others....well...i'm not an expert, they do what they want but i think it's not fair for St Denis.

What about french gardens? :=)

Author Solivagant
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#26 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 11:12 | Edited by: Solivagant 
jeanbon:
What about french gardens?

If you mean the French Formal Garden or "jardin à la française " isn't it already very well represented?
This "connection" lists 18 WHS containing an example of such a garden (5 of which are in France itself)-
http://www.worldheritagesite.org/connection/French+%28formal%29+garden

jeanbon:
No other cathedral shows the same richness. For me, it's just an assessment, nothing else, Bourges, Amiens or Chartres have less reasons to be inscribed on the list than St Denis

That's what I was getting at with the "last" sentence which you said you didn't understand - which existing inscribed French Cathedral would you "sacrifice" in order to get St Denis on IF that was the rule? Well you have said - but we should ask YOU - why don't you think France has progressed St Denis ? That isn't the "normal" sort of behaviour of French "Mairies" when presented with the possibility of a tourism-boosting inscription! As a "newcomer" to the Forum you should perhaps be aware that a number of the regular contributors think that some European countries - including France but also e.g Spain, Belgium, Germany and Italy "play" the "World Heritage Game" too much in order to inscribe more and more similar/repeat or, at best, average sites. This does not reflect an anti French, German etc outlook but a concern that the entire scheme is being degraded. With lots of money to spend on thick Nomination Files coupled with the ability to present evidence of "Western" standards of site management they are able to construct ever more "sophisticated" (some might say - abstruse or recondite) arguments to identify OUV. ("Metz Royal and Imperial, stakes of power, stylistic confrontations and urban identity" sounds suspiciously like one of these!!). They then undermine the annual nomination limits by jumping on every transnational nomination bandwagon they can find (Beech Forests???).

jeanbon:
For the nominations you are talking about winterkjm, I could understand the inscription of: The Marquesas Islands (2010) The French Southern Territories National Nature Reserve (2016), but the others....well...i'm not an expert, they do what they want

Those comments might indicate that you could possibly share this view?

Author winterkjm
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#27 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 11:14 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Solivagant beat me to the punch!

According to our connections page French (Formal Garden), we have at least 18 examples of French Gardens on the world heritage list.

There may be a nomination in the works for the Garden of Monet at Giverny as well. Are you of the mind that France should propose a French Garden serial nomination in the same vein as the Persian Garden WHS, in so doing bringing together several of the best examples of French Gardens in the country? Or do you have a specific garden (or two) in mind that might deserve inscription on its own merits?

Author Solivagant
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#28 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 12:03 | Edited by: Solivagant 
@@

Author jonathanfr
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#29 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 12:16 
winterkjm:
Or do you have a specific garden (or two) in mind that might deserve inscription on its own merits?

The gardens of Villandry are remarkable but already registered with the valley of the Loire, otherwise there is Vaux-le-Vicomte and its castle (on the tentative list) but this site as Saint-Denis belongs to a type of classical heritage already on -represent.
The tendency of France is now to propose complex dossiers spread over large territories (8 cultural landscapes, a record) rather than monuments punctual. To propose without delay the Cordouan lighthouse (on the tentative list) would be simpler for my country: the file would be relatively easy to mount.

Author jeanbon
Registered
#30 | Posted: 25 Jul 2017 17:38 
In fact, i don't mind if France wants to inscribe Metz or Nimes. To answer you, i would prefer to sacrifice Amiens, Bourges and Chartres for St Denis. This "game" as you said is maybe true. I don't know where do you come from, but US for example should inscribe many other sites! Clearly!

For the "jardins à la française" (my translation was useless lol), i didn't know that there was connection with other sites, it's intersting. It was just an idea by the way which came when i've been in Iran.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jardin_%C3%A0_la_fran%C3%A7aise#Principaux_jardins_.C3. A0_la_fran.C3.A7aise
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_formal_garden#List

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