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Author Assif
Partaker
#121 | Posted: 7 Mar 2018 11:22 | Edited by: Assif 
meltwaterfalls:
Also interesting to note Buchenwald Concentration Camp being considered.

It was also considered for the last extension of the German T list, together with Doberaner Münster and Halberstadt - all from the old T list. Meissen and Goerlitz were considered for the Saxonian T list.

Author elsslots
Admin
#122 | Posted: 7 Mar 2018 14:25 
Assif:
Also interesting to note Buchenwald Concentration Camp being considered.

Ravensbrück is another former concentration camp that was on the GDR short list

Author Zoe
Partaker
#123 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 05:58 
Sorry if this was mentioned before but is the Lower German Limes supposed to be an extension or a new inscription attempt?

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#124 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 06:18 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zoe:
Sorry if this was mentioned before but is the Lower German Limes supposed to be an extension or a new inscription attempt?

An extension.
But the question has brought out an interesting aspect about the series of extensions (2 already inscribed plus this one on top of the original "Hadrian's wall" - so "Antonine", "Upper German Raetian Limes" and "Lower German Limes") which have been taking place of which I, for one, was unaware.
See the final section on the UNESCO page for this T List site ( http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/6299 )
I.e Each individual extension is supposed to ADD something to the overall inscribed set of locations as opposed to giving more and more countries a chance to jump on the bandwagon by inscribing yey more forts, ditches etc etc etc etc!
So this particuklar extension is described as follows -
"Comparison with other similar properties
The Frontiers of the Roman Empire World Heritage Site is a serial nomination for which the participating States Parties have agreed that all component parts should have OUV. This means that the overall Frontier will eventually be represented by a series of components that will each display particular and significant characteristics of the Frontier, and together the components as a series will show how the Frontier reflected substantial and distinctive responses to local topographical and political conditions as well as the unifying forces of the Empire.
For the German part of the Lower German Limes, the emphasis is on the interaction of the various levels of garrisons and the army's involvement in mining, industry, logistics and building activity."


Which raises the questions
a. What specifically were the previous extensions considered to add
b. What are the future T List extensions supposed to be adding (and how many are there likely to be, do we know how they are progressing etc etc)
c. Is there anywhere an overall document describing the "vision" for the entire ensemble?

I shall look see!

Author elsslots
Admin
#125 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 06:45 | Edited by: elsslots 
Also: the Lower German Limes lies in the territory of Germany and the Netherlands. The nomination of this part of the Limes as an extension of the FRE WHS will therefore be made jointly by the two countries.

P.S.: this nomination is scheduled for 2021 according to Dutch sources, I will therefore correct this on the future year pages (so Danube Limes in Austria and Bavaria is for 2019, Lower German Limes for 2021)

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#126 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 06:48 
Els - one element of the T List extensions for the FRE seems to be twice on your list -weren't you looking for an error the other day.
Germany seems to have Austria's T List entry as well as its own for the Lower Limes?

Author elsslots
Admin
#127 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 06:51 | Edited by: elsslots 
See my P.S. above: there are two segments. The link to the Austrian site is an error because of the same name (will create a finding in our todo technical backlog for not linking on names only)

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#128 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 06:56 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
See my P.S. above: there are two segments

Yes but I wasn't referring to the NL/German segments but to the double entry for the Austrian segment which seems to have resulted in Germany having one extra T List site to its correct number!

PS - but I see that UNESCO has 2 entries for Germany under its T List for the Limes!! What is going on?
http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/state=de

Author elsslots
Admin
#129 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 07:04 
See my text above, there are 2 extensions: one for 2019 (Aus/Ger) and one for 2021 (NL/Ger)

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#130 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 07:08 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
See my text above, there are 2 extensions:

Sorry - I hadn't seen your "PS" -so Germany will finish up with 3 elements for the Limes within its frontiers -
The existing "Raetian Limes"
The currently nominated "Lower Limes" (with NL)
The "yet to be" nominated "Western Danubian Limes" together with Austria ("The nominated section Danube Limes in Austria and Bavaria forms the westernmost part of the vast and complex Danube Limes and consists of a number of individual sites located along a stretch of about 500 kilometres from the vicinity of the fort of Eining (Abusina) in Lower Bavaria, where the Upper German-Raetian Limes ends, to Passau at the border to Austria and further on to the area east of Hainburg / Wolfsthal in Lower Austria close to the Slovak border") Though whether that really WOULD be nominated separately from a possible "Lower Danubian Limes (Serbia, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria) we don't yet know.

And then there is Tunisia's T List section still to come as well!!! Which leaves "potential" for Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Libya and Algeria!

Author elsslots
Admin
#131 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 07:14 
Solivagant:
c. Is there anywhere an overall document describing the "vision" for the entire ensemble?

There is a thematic study, see last 2 pdfs here http://www.limeswerelderfgoed.nl/downloads/onderzoeken-en-rapporten/

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#132 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 07:18 | Edited by: Solivagant 

Author elsslots
Admin
#133 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 07:20 | Edited by: elsslots 
The ones I linked to are very recent (2017), and envision 3 extensions in Europe: Lower German, Danube and Dacia. See from page 98 in this document: http://www.limeswerelderfgoed.nl/download/the-frontiers-the-roman-empire-part-2/?wpdm dl=1156

Author elsslots
Admin
#134 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 07:32 
The document in the previous post also has the following the following timetable:
January 2018 submission of the nomination dossier for the Danube frontier, western
segment
January 2020 submission of the nomination dossier for the Lower German frontier
January 2021 submission of the nomination dossier for a major extension to add the
eastern segment to the Danube frontier property
January 2021 submission of the nomination dossier for the Dacian frontier

Author Solivagant
Partaker
#135 | Posted: 27 Mar 2018 15:52 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Zoe:
is the Lower German Limes supposed to be an extension or a new inscription attempt?

Els (and Zoe if you are still with us on this somewhat esoteric subject!!!) - how do you "read" the final section of the Thematic study setting out the way forward regarding the issue of whether the next inscribed elements would be extensions or separate sites?????
I quote 2 sections from pages 52 and 53 (my "bold")
"When the nomination of the Upper German-Raetian Limes was handed in as a first extension of Hadrian's Wall under the joint heading of 'Frontiers of the Roman Empire', the nomination dossier included a paragraph defining a common management system. Since it was envisaged that the property would be further extended in the near future – as it actually was by the subsequent nomination of the Antonine Wall – the management system was designed to be able to incorporate further States Parties."
followed by
"Since it is no longer envisaged to extend the inscribed property ref. 430ter, a new overarching framework is needed to support international collaboration in those fields relevant to the overall management and development of the European frontiers of the Roman Empire as World Heritage."

The current FRE elements (consisting of Hadrians Wall, Upper German-Raetian Limes and Antonine Wall) are all part of a single inscription with the Ref No 430 - this second quote however would seem to suggest that the next sections ("Lower Rhine", "Danube (East and West)", "Dacia") would NOT constitute part of Inscribed site Ref 430 but that they would be linked ONLY by the "Cluster" concept. It doesn't seem to suggest however that the existing elements of 430 would be split apart. Which goes back of course to Zoe's original question above!!

I note by the way that Romania has not yet put in place its T List elements (one for its last bit of the Danube section east of Bulgaria's, and another for its own "Dacia" section)!!! See Page 54 "are demonstrations of successful cooperation by the States Parties involved in the envisaged section, resulting amongst others in the submission of entries on the Tentative Lists of Hungary (2009), Austria, Germany, Serbia (all 2015), Bulgaria (2016) and Romania (due for 2017)." (again my "bold")

On another matter - might this approach also be what is envisaged for future the separate elements of the Silk Road for which the same word "cluster" has been used????

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