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Author clyde
Partaker
#151 | Posted: 16 Oct 2020 14:56 
I really cannot understand unfriendly and unwelcoming people working in the tourism industry

Author elsslots
Admin
#152 | Posted: 17 Oct 2020 00:40 
Maybe they don't see themselves as a tourist site? Places likes this can be deadly serious about themselves (even more so in Germany) and get overprotective. Was it guarded as well? Were they afraid of antisemitic attacks? If you both had the same vibe, it must be more than one unfriendly person working at the ticket office.

Author meltwaterfalls
Partaker
#153 | Posted: 17 Oct 2020 05:22 
I must admit it did have a less than welcoming approach when we visited as well. I think as Els suggests it may be more of how they view themselves as not really a tourist attraction and more of cultural institution.

It did stick in my mind though, especially as the photo restrictions were tough, when in most cases there wasn't an awful lot inside that if would seem detrimental to.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#154 | Posted: 19 Oct 2020 08:53 | Edited by: nfmungard 
Feels like I need to visit Erfurt myself..

Curious to see if this is a general German thing or related to the site and staff itself. I would agree with Ian and Els, though, that Jewish sites in Germany are often quiet and educational. On purpose. They are not intended as tourist/entertainment sites and are not part of the tourism industry. They should be treated accordingly.

Author Zoe
Partaker
#155 | Posted: 19 Oct 2020 21:44 | Edited by: Zoe 
That might be so but with an entrance price attached to the site I expect to be treated like a guest rather than an unwelcomed one. The lady at the reception wasn't that half bad but made it clear I wouldn't get much out of the upper area without an audio guide , obviously costing extra again (I forget if it was available mutli-language). The "security" were very condescending and the only friendly person was chatting with me at the wedding ring display when I asked if this is something they would wear for more than just the wedding. "Oh goodness, no" lol

@nan Please feel free to point this out when you visit haha

Author christravelblog
Partaker
#156 | Posted: 23 Oct 2021 10:15 
5D/4N from Frankfurt: 8 sites

please comment :-) I stay in Frankfurt for a reason so I have to do all from there.
Further I will drive another time Wurzburg - Bamberg - Bayreuth - Regensburg - (Danube Limes) - Augsburg - Ulm (Ice Caves).
so not planning any of these. Especially the ShUM sites: to much?
Also D3 is a Monday and only those places are basically open then.

Ticking 8 UNESCO sites from Frankfurt
D1 Drive to Bad Ems then Saalburg Roman (until 4PM open)
D2 Drive (1h) to Spyer Cathedral (open at 11:30), Jewish Heritage (open 10:00)
After lunch got drive (0:40h) to Maulbronn Monastery (open till 17:00) back to Frankfurt
D3 Drive (0:30h) to Messel Pit (open at 11:00), then Mathildenhöhe Darmstadt and back to Frankfurt (0:30h drive)
D4 Drive (0:45h) to Abbey and Altenmünster of Lorsch (open 10:00) then to Worms and (optional Mainz) for ShUM back to Frankfurt hotel.
D5 Drive home via Upper Middle Rhine Valley (can include Bad Ems here for lunch?)

Author Jurre
Partaker
#157 | Posted: 23 Oct 2021 21:30 | Edited by: Jurre 
I did much of these sites this summer by car.

Bad Ems with the Saalburg might be doable, but I chose not too, because I thought they were too far away from each other. I combined the Saalburg with Bad Homburg vor der Höhe. Not a WHS, but an enjoyable town nevertheless, that pleasantly surprised me. Nice castle and park, and nice Kurgarten to stroll around in. I combined it also on the same day with Wiesbaden.

I also combined Messel Pit with Darmstadt. When in Darmstadt, don't forget to visit the Hessisches Landesmuseum. It has a beautiful collection of armours, gold and silver objects, paintings and Art Nouveau. It also houses some finds form the Messel Pit.

Lorsch and Worms are also doable in one day. I did both of them on one day as well. The synagogue and Jewish Museum are ok, but not that overwhelming. Part of the synagogue is closed off because of restauration, and unfortunately, the mikveh was unaccessible, also because it was being restored. The Jewish cemetery should be accessible during the day. If you have time to spare in Worms, may I recommend the cathedral (or course) and Museum der Stadt Worms (Worms City Museum). It had an very interesting exposition this summer on Martin Luther, as it is 500 years since Luther came to Worms to defend himself before Emperor Charles V.

The Jewish Cemetery in Mainz is at about a 15 minute walk from the Central Station. It was closed with no indication of opening hours, so I only managed to view it through the railings. There were banners stating "Wir sind Welderbe", but that was about it. Maybe not worth the drive if you would only go for the cemetery. I was a bit disappointed.

I took two days for the Upper Middle Rhine Valley, one driving down from Koblenz, and one driving up the other way, with some stops along the way. I visited the Festung Ehrenbreitstein in Koblenz and the Lorelei. I also visited Rüdesheim am Rhein and the Niederwalddenkmal. Doing Bad Ems is doable in combination with it, I think, but you will have less or no time to visit places along the Rhine in that case.

Author christravelblog
Partaker
#158 | Posted: 24 Oct 2021 08:30 
Jurre:
I did much of these sites this summer by car.

Tnx for the extensive answer! I drive from the Netherlands (to Frankfurt would be 4 hours on a weekend day) and after 3 hours drive I would be in Bad Ems before lunch time. It adds only 35 minute driving time to Frankfurt for me. After lunch I then planned Saalburg. But I check it on the day if it works out. Bad Ems least important as I have seen already some Spa towns.

Museums: thank you for highlighting these. The idea is to add the city museums etc as well.

Might drive early on the departure day; just peak at the Mainz cemetary and then drive the Rhine valley. Now planning which stops i want to make in the vallye.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#159 | Posted: 25 Oct 2021 03:26 
christravelblog:
please comment :-) I stay in Frankfurt for a reason so I have to do all from there.

I read your itinerary. At first I thought, you were doing this by train/public transport as day trips. And that was the challenge you are facing. And even that would be possible.

By car, I don't understand your concern in the first place. All can be done and I think you could be more ambitious. Lorsch, Messel and Darmstadt seem like a natural combination, all being lackluster in close proximity. If you are in for some touristy visits, tick Heidelberg (FT). There are also plenty of vineyards in the area. Hubert would know better. You can also visit Schwetzingen (FT), but if you are bored of palaces dont.

A visit to Worms should include the cathedral (Former Tent). Mainz cathedral was the imperial cathedral for centuries, so go there, too. I am not sure though that the Jewish heritage is really a site where you need to explore each component, so I would (and did) only tick Speyer.

In Frankfurt, I think to make sense of Messel go to the Senckenberg Museum. Städel Museum is also on my to do list. If you have time in Frankfurt, go to Paulskirche (1848 German revolution, Former Tent). The Römer etc. is rebuilt (and badly at that). I would rather go to Hoechst. There is also the Goethe House (FT), but I am not a fan of birth places.

If you want to explore the Rhine Valley, you could do a stop in Eberwald (FT). I found it nice. I think driving along the Rhine with time to stop on one of the many castles is a nice experience. Best is to take a ship though.

Author christravelblog
Partaker
#160 | Posted: 25 Oct 2021 05:17 
nfmungard:
I read your itinerary. At first I thought, you were doing this by train/public transport as day trips. And that was the challenge you are facing. And even that would be possible.

Hi, yes by car :-) sorry I wasn't clear on that. Especially checking what else I can add. I added the Senckenberg Museum. In Frankfurt I hope to have some time it depends the times I'll get back each day. That's why I probably do not add in any FT sites. The Stadel Museum is high on my list as well.

Author hubert
Partaker
#161 | Posted: 25 Oct 2021 06:41 | Edited by: hubert 
christravelblog:
Hi, yes by car

I also think that your itinerary is easily doable by car. However, you have to keep in mind that the traffic on the motorways around Frankfurt can be very heavy, especially in the morning and evening rush hour.
I agree with nfmungard that you can easily combine Messel, Mathildenhöhe and Lorsch, even Worms. But it depends on how much time you plan for the visits.
In Messel there are guided tours to the pit. The visitor centre only shows a few fossils. I would recommend the Hessisches Landesmuseum in Darmstadt, they have a huge collection from Messel, including the famous primeval horse. It makes the visit complete.
https://www.hlmd.de/en/museum/natural-history/history-of-the-earth/messel-pit.html

At Mathildenhöhe I would recommend the permanent exhibition in the museum with furniture, tableware and design objects by the artists of the Mathildenhöhe.
The visit to Lorsch should be quite short. A guided tour to the interior of the Torhalle is not necessary, the photo in my review shows everything of interest. There is also an open air museum (Lauresham, showing the life in a community in the early medieval period). But it is not part of the WHS and I have not visited it yet.
Shum cities: I liked Worms better than Speyer, mainly because of the cemetery. However, the mikve in Worms is currently closed for renovation, as far as I know. Mainz could be skipped.
For non-WHS in Mainz I would highly recommend St Stephan, the windows by Marc Chagall:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7mRgp0Bi1U

In Frankfurt, as already mentioned by nfmungard: Paulskirche, Städel, Senckenberg. For modern art, I can recommend the MMK (also for its architecture):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_f%C3%BCr_Moderne_Kunst

And I agree that the best way to explore the Middle Rhine Valley is by boat: four hours from Rüdesheim to Koblenz, one hour back by train. By car, you have to choose between the right or the left bank of the river, there is no bridge, only a ferry in St Goar/St Goarshausen.

I would do the Sunday (D2) the other way round: first Maulbronn, then Speyer. The cathedral is open until 7 pm, as far as I know (at least in summer).

Author christravelblog
Partaker
#162 | Posted: 25 Oct 2021 11:49 
hubert:
I would do the Sunday (D2) the other way round: first Maulbronn, then Speyer. The cathedral is open until 7 pm, as far as I know (at least in summer).

Yes this I updated myself as well. Makes more sense. I check the other things.

hubert:
Mathildenhöhe I would recommend the permanent exhibition in the museum

Yes, but this is closed the monday I go. I have to do those places mondays as messel pit is open and the outside of Mathildenhöhe I can always see. So probably no museum :-(

hubert:
Middle Rhine Valley

by boat yes maybe. I guess I choose 1 of the sides and drive it. I will check where i want to stop.

Author Jurre
Partaker
#163 | Posted: 25 Oct 2021 19:15 | Edited by: Jurre 
christravelblog:
Yes, but this is closed the monday I go. I have to do those places mondays as messel pit is open and the outside of Mathildenhöhe I can always see. So probably no museum :-(

I didn't do the Mathildenhöhe museum, as I thought the entry price was quite high for what it might possibly house. And unfortunately, Mathildenhöhe was in scaffolding this summer. Not the tower, fortunately.

I do think it's a bit disappointing that they only seem to start the renovations after they've become WHS. Both Mathildenhöhe and the synagogue and mikveh in Worms were under renovation an not really showing their best side. I found that very unfortunate.

I would advice to give Worms at least half a day. It was a nice city to walk around in. And definitely if you plan to do the museums.
The Hessisches Landesmuseum in Darmstadt also entertained me for about three hours. The collection was really good, I thought. But I'm a museum freak.

I thought Mainz was a bit on the lesser side as a city. But the cathedral (one of the three Kaiserdome) was nice, and if you want to do a museum, I'd recommend the Gutenberg museum.

As for stops along the Rhine, I'd recommend Rüdesheim, Kaub (for a view at Burg Pfalzgravenstein), the Loreley (for the view) and Boppard. This summer, part of the way between Assmannshausen and Kaub was closed for traffic, so you might want to check on that.

Author hubert
Partaker
#164 | Posted: 29 Oct 2021 14:37 | Edited by: hubert 
The first stage for the revision of the German Tentative List has been completed. The federal states were invited to submit one or two proposals for new sites to the Conference of Ministers of Cultural Affairs by the end of October. In addition, four proposals that were postponed in 2014 to further research the topic could be resubmitted. Next year, the sites will be evaluated by an commission of experts. The plan is to submit the new T-list before February 1st 2024.
I am not sure if a complete list will be published. I have compiled a list from the official announcements of the federal state governments in the last weeks.

- Nuremberg Palace of Justice with Courtroom 600 and historic prison cells - site of the main War Crimes Trial and birthplace of international criminal law (Bavaria)
I am not sure if the room can be restored to the original state, so maybey a problem with integrity and authenticity
- Olympic Park and Sports Facilities of the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich (Bavaria)
- Celtic power centres of the Early Iron Age northwest of the Alps: Heuneburg (Baden Württemberg), Glauberg (Hesse) and Mont Lassois (Burgundy, France)
- TV Tower Stuttgart (Baden-Württemberg), the first TV tower built from reinforced concrete
- "Neues Frankfurt" Housing estates and green belt – Frankfurt Modern Urban Landscape (Hesse)
Two housing estates – Römerstadt and Höhenblick – built in the 1920s by Ernst May, similar to the Berlin Housing Estate WHS but not of the same value, in my opinion, Amsterdam or Vienna would have more to offer
- Mill stone mining sites in the Rhine-Eifel area (Rhineland –Palatinate), an underground mine, three basalt lava quarries and remains of a historic Rhine harbour.
- Cultural Landscape of the Thuringian Residences (Thuringia), nine palaces and castles representing the territorial fragmentation of the region between the 16th and early 20th century with numerous small counties and duchies
- Göltzsch Viaduct (Saxony), the largest brick bridge in the world
-Sites of Meissen Porcelain (Saxony)
- Garden City and the Festival Theatre Ensemble Hellerau in Dresden (Saxony) postponed in 2014
- Görlitz - an architectural ensemble on the Via Regia (Saxony) postponed in 2014, probably the best-preserved historic town centre in Germany, special feature being the historic Hallenhäuser (merchants' houses).
- Rothensee Boat Lift (Saxony-Anhalt)
- Pretziener Weir (Saxony-Anhalt), built in 1875 to protect against floods from the Elbe river, back then the largest weir of its kind in Europe
- Iron arch bridges of the 19th century: Müngsten Bridge (North Rhine Westfalia) as part of a transnational and serial nomination with six bridges in Portugal, Italy, France
- Karl-Marx-Allee and Interbau 1957. Architecture and Urbanism of Post-World War II Modernism (Berlin), two residential areas as comparison between the styles in East and West, the list of architects of the Hansaviertel is like the who's who of the famous architects of this period
- Waldsiedlung Zehlendorf (Berlin), extension of the Berlin Modernism Housing Estates
- Astronomical Clock in the St. Mary's Church Rostock (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern), The medieval clock is the only one of its kind still in working condition with its original clockworks (Wikipedia)
- Observatory Bergedorf (Hamburg), built at the beginning of the 20th century, represents transition from classical astronomy to modern astrophysics.
- Tagebaufolgelandschaft (post-mining landscape) Lausitz (Brandenburg), recultivated landscape of the open-cast lignite mines in Lausitz,
- Archaeological Site of the Schöningen Spears - Man and Hunting 300,000 Years Ago (Lower Saxony), the spears are the oldest completely preserved hunting weapons
- Rundling settlements in the Wendland (Lower Saxony), 19 rural settlements from the early Medieval period, typical of the Germania Slavica region, circular villages with farmhouses around a central square

No proposals from Bremen, Schleswig-Holstein, Saarland

Not included here, but confirmed: Herrnhut Moravian Church and Berthelsdorf Castle as part of a transnational extension of the Christiansfeld WHS

Industrial Landscape of the Ruhr area, the fourth proposal postponed in 2014, was not resubmitted.

Also discussed: the Heeresversuchsanstalt Peenemünde (Army Research Centre), the site where the German V-2 missile was developed. It was controversially discussed and finally postponed mainly to include the victims' associations in such a project. Concentration camp prisoners were employed as forced labourers.

My favourite is clear – Munich Olympic Park, definitely a missing site in my opinion.
And I think Stuttgart TV Tower and Karl-Marx-Allee/Hansaviertel in Berlin are also worth considering.
Apart from that, not much exciting.

Author nfmungard
Partaker
#165 | Posted: 31 Oct 2021 03:51 
As a German resident being well travelled in Germany, I am astounded at the many places I still don't know about.

For me, Germany outside the Roman territories (Antiquity, Late Antiquity) is a gap on the German list. So interesting to see a few candidates here (not sure of their value though).

hubert:
- Celtic power centres of the Early Iron Age northwest of the Alps: Heuneburg (Baden Württemberg), Glauberg (Hesse) and Mont Lassois (Burgundy, France)
- Rundling settlements in the Wendland (Lower Saxony), 19 rural settlements from the early Medieval period, typical of the Germania Slavica region, circular villages with farmhouses around a central square

Not sure prehistory is a gap. And spears are very movable.
hubert:
- Archaeological Site of the Schöningen Spears - Man and Hunting 300,000 Years Ago (Lower Saxony), the spears are the oldest completely preserved hunting weapons

hubert:
- Cultural Landscape of the Thuringian Residences (Thuringia)

Boring. Skip.

Early 20th Century
hubert:
- "Neues Frankfurt" Housing estates and green belt – Frankfurt Modern Urban Landscape (Hesse)

Frankfurt Housing -> GIven that Berlin is already inscribed, I don't see much OUV being added here.

WW2:
hubert:
- Nuremberg Palace of Justice with Courtroom 600 and historic prison cells - site of the main War Crimes Trial and birthplace of international criminal law (Bavaria)

Dont like Nuremberg. It should be kept as German history.

Post WW2
hubert:
- Olympic Park and Sports Facilities of the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich (Bavaria)
- TV Tower Stuttgart (Baden-Württemberg), the first TV tower built from reinforced concrete
- Karl-Marx-Allee and Interbau 1957. Architecture and Urbanism of Post-World War II Modernism (Berlin), two residential areas as comparison between the styles in East and West, the list of architects of the Hansaviertel is like the who's who of the famous architects of this period

München have only seen pictures. But yeah, I think it's interesting.
Stuttgart Radio Tower is one ugly radio tower... Not sure this deserves inscription. Imho it should be torn down.
West Berlin always looked ugly to me. Have to take a look at Karl Marx Allee.

hubert:
- Mill stone mining sites in the Rhine-Eifel area (Rhineland –Palatinate), an underground mine, three basalt lava quarries and remains of a historic

What is this?

hubert:
- Observatory Bergedorf (Hamburg), built at the beginning of the 20th century, represents transition from classical astronomy to modern astrophysics.

I feel this would be better served as a national monument.

hubert:
- Tagebaufolgelandschaft (post-mining landscape) Lausitz (Brandenburg), recultivated landscape of the open-cast lignite mines in Lausitz,

Single most destructive energy resource, major destruction of environment. I don't think this should be inscribed.

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