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Connection Queries?

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Author winterkjm
Registered
#16 | Posted: 12 Aug 2011 05:08 
I noticed the Royal Tombs of the Joseon Dynasty still has the connection of "built in the 15th century" and " built in the 20th century". Perhaps the 20th century connection should moved to "Contains significant structures from the 20th Century". The vast majority of tombs are from the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. Only one tomb cluster is from the 20th century, and this tomb is after Korea became an Empire, in which the style of the tombs changed dramatically from its predessors.

Author Solivagant
Registered
#17 | Posted: 12 Aug 2011 05:23 | Edited by: Solivagant 
agree

Author winterkjm
Registered
#18 | Posted: 13 Aug 2011 04:05 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I noticed a small overlap on connections of two sites.

'Contains significant structures from the 20th Century'

Paris, Banks of the Seine - Palais de Chaillot (Listed Twice)

'Statues'

Seokguram Grotto and Bulguksa Temple - Seokguram Grotto's famous Seokgamoni Buddha (Listed Twice)

Author winterkjm
Registered
#19 | Posted: 19 Aug 2011 14:50 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Perhaps it might help to organize the Connections by using subject first in some of the names:

For example -

Architecture
Architecture, Brick
Architecture, Mud/Earth
Architecture, Reinforced Concrete
Architecture, Rock Cut
Architecture, Steel-Framed
Architecture, Vernacular
Architecture, Wooden

Garden, Chinese
Garden, English
Garden, French (formal)
Garden, Japanese
Garden, Persian

Style, Art Deco
Style, Art Nouveau
Style, Baroque
Style, Churrigueresque
Style, Georgian
Style, Gothic
Style, Gothic Revival
Style, International
Style, Isabelline
Style, Mannerism
Style, Manueline
Style, Moorish Revival
Style, Mudejar
Style, Neo-Baroque
Style, Neoclassical
Style, Norman
Style, Palladian
Style, Pre-Romanesque
Style, Rococo
Style, Romanesque
Style, Timurid

Ecology
Habitat, Bear
Habitat, Chimpanzee
Habitat, Crocodile
Habitat, Gorilla
Habitat, Gray Wolf
Habitat, Otter
Habitat, Penguin
Habitat, Rhino
Habitat, Snow Leopard
Habitat, Tiger
Habitat, Turtle and Tortoise
Habitat, Whale

Geography
Ocean, Arctic
Ocean, Atlantic
Ocean, Indian
Ocean, Pacific

River, Danube
River, Ganges
River, Guadalquivir
River, Mekong
River, Nile
River, Rhine
River, Rhone
River, Tagus
River, Vistula

Sea, Adriatic
Sea, Baltic
Sea, Caribbean
Sea, Caspian
Sea, Coral
Sea, East (or) Sea of Japan
Sea, South China

History
Dynasty, Chola
Dynasty, Joseon

Empire, Assyrian
Empire, Aztec
Empire, Babylonian
Empire, Byzantine (civilization)
Empire, Carolingian
Empire, Holy Roman
Empire, Khmer
Empire, Khorezm
Empire, Mughal
Empire, Ottoman
Empire, Parthian
Empire, Punic
Empire, Sassanid
Empire, Songhai

Religion and Belief
Church, Armenian Orthodox
Church, Coptic Orthodox
Church, Ethiopian Orthodox
Church, Greek Orthodox (outside Greece)
Church, Russian Orthodox (outside Russia)
Church, Syriac

Order, Augustinian
Order, Benedictine
Order, Cistercian
Order, Franciscan
Order, Jesuit

There are probably more connections that could be organized in this way. It will make it easier to locate specific connections as well as develop new ones.

Author winterkjm
Registered
#20 | Posted: 28 Aug 2011 09:49 
I submitted a couple new connections to Legends and Folk Myths , Toyotomi Hideoshi, and Famous Suicides 2-3 days ago. Perhaps, they did not go through. I am currently using rather poor internet visiting family in the Midwest.

Author elsslots
Admin
#21 | Posted: 28 Aug 2011 11:46 
winterkjm:
couple new connections

I've seen them, they will be up tonight or so

Author Durian
Registered
#22 | Posted: 29 Aug 2011 21:12 | Edited by: Durian 
with respect to Toyotomi Hideyoshi connection on Kyoto's Kinkakuji, I think it is not quite related. For Kyoto, I think Daigoji Temple is much better for connection with Hideyoshi, as the temple is where the warlord hosted famous sakura viewing party in 1598, also he donated money for the temple restoration.

Also for Nara, Asukadera Temple is not part of WHS, the temple is located in Asuka which is in the tentative list of Japan.

For all sites in Korea, as Hideyoshi himself never been to Korea, I don't think those sites have direct connection with him, I suggest to have a new connection for Imjin War or Japanese-Korean conflicts, maybe better for this connection.

Author winterkjm
Registered
#23 | Posted: 30 Aug 2011 00:54 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I struggled with this connection. The Imjin War is largely unknown to many, yet it had a profound impact on East Asia. It certainly was a factor in the Ming dynasty collapse and the rise of the Manchu's. Furthermore, for the first time Japan threatened the Asian mainland, shocking the Chinese and Koreans, who often viewed Japan as a backwater filled with pirates and barbarians.

Another factor in how I developed this connection, if the Imjin war was the connection all sites would be in South Korea only. While the war may not be common knowledge in general, it is more interesting to connect sites between two or more countries.

This is my basic justification for making the connection under Toyotomi Hideyoshi:
*When I created this connection, I knew full well that Hideyoshi never set foot in Korea. (though he had planned to lead the invasion in person) The invasion of Korea was driven solely on Hideyoshi's misguided and ignorant attempt to conquer China and India. Hideyoshi's stubborn will led to the invasion of China through Korea, even though it was not a popular idea amongst the other lords under him. Ironically enough Japanese troops only briefly entered Chinese territory, and not long after were forced to focus once again on Korea.

*The war also has many names such as the Seven Years War or Hideyoshi's Invasions of Korea. It is also important to note, Hideyoshi got updates regularly from the battlefields and sent orders to his Daimyo in Korea.

As far as your details concerning some of the sites in Japan, I may have made some mistakes on which parts were actually WHS. I am somewhat less familiar with some of the Japanese WHS. Nevertheless, it is clear Hideyoshi spent significant time in and around Kyoto.

I am certainly open to suggestions to adjusting and/or correcting this connection. I have been thinking of how to create a more complete and accurate straight-forward connection. I do feel this war or the person most assoiated with it do merit a connection.

Author winterkjm
Registered
#24 | Posted: 30 Aug 2011 01:20 
Durian:
I suggest to have a new connection for Imjin War or Japanese-Korean conflicts, maybe better for this connection.


These are both excellent suggestions. On the other hand it might also be approapriate to just add a sentence to the Toyotomi Hideyoshi connection noting that he never personally set foot in Korea, but the idea of invading the Asian mainland through Korea was Hideyoshi's dream of greatly expanding the newly unified Japan.

I think all three suggestions work, and I have no problem whichever Els feels fits best.

Author Solivagant
Registered
#25 | Posted: 30 Aug 2011 04:15 | Edited by: Solivagant 
At one time I thought we should have an additional Connection "rule" - namely that at least 2 countries should be involved. But we have quite a few now covering only one country. E.g Ivan the Terrible, Chola Dynasty, Aztec Empire, Pueblo People, Zapotec, Etruscans, and Thomas Telford (well - England, Scotland and Wales!).

The flood gates don't seem to have opened and each of these Connections has its interest. I did "rebel" a bit when some uniquely French grouping/organisation of towns was included and felt it necessary to propose England/Wales's "National Trust" as a "spoiler"! As long as the Connection isn't, by definition, limited to a single country the "single country" limitation doesn't (as yet!) seem necessary. Connections involving subjects which cover Europe with its many contemporary countries whose boundaries are rather different from those of earlier days (and also having had world-wide colonial aspects) would otherwise fare more easily than those from vast countries such as Russia or one's whose history has been less "expansive"

I for one have learned quite a lot from the Hideyoshi Connection - my study of Japanese history as part of a Modern World History course (many, many years ago!) only started with the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate! It is however a bit tenuous to include for an individual's "Connection", locations involved in a war where that individual didn't actually go - where do we stop with European kings for instance, and popes and prime ministers etc etc??

I feel that 2 different connections for Hideyoshi and the Imjin War is more appropriate and in tune with our approaches elsewhere even if it does create 2 "single country" Connections - by all means mention that the latter was at the behest of the former.

Author winterkjm
Registered
#26 | Posted: 30 Aug 2011 08:41 
If the Imjin War connection route is taken it might be possible to connect 1 site in Japan and 1 site in China to the Korean sites. Ambassadors from Korea met in Kyoto during and after the war. Furthermore, Japanese envoys were sent to Beijing. Korean envoys were also sent to the Wanli Emperor of the Great Ming at the outset of war to warn the Ming dynasty and to illustate to the Ming, that Joseon was their ally and would remain so. I probably have to do a bit more research on this one though.

Author Durian
Registered
#27 | Posted: 30 Aug 2011 10:22 | Edited by: Durian 
But winterkjm, for Kyoto connection, to the best of my knowledge Ieyasu met the ambassador at Fushimi Castle in the southern part of Kyoto near Uji, and the Korean Embassy was located at Honpoji Temple, so it's not related to any WHS in Kyoto.

Author winterkjm
Registered
#28 | Posted: 30 Aug 2011 11:04 
Ok, I knew it was in or around Kyoto, but I thought I would need to do some research to check concerning if it was actually within the WHS boundary.

"In the summer of 1593, a Chinese delegation visited Japan and stayed at the court of Hideyoshi for more than a month." - new world encyclopedia

Where was Hideyoshi's court?

"An envoy from Hideyoshi reached Beijing in 1594." - new world encyclopedia

Do you know if any of the Japanese or Korean envoys came to the Forbidden City?

Author Durian
Registered
#29 | Posted: 30 Aug 2011 11:20 | Edited by: Durian 
Dear Winterkjm, Hideyoshi's court was located in Osaka Castle.

Author winterkjm
Registered
#30 | Posted: 30 Aug 2011 16:52 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Durian:
For Kyoto, I think Daigoji Temple is much better for connection with Hideyoshi, as the temple is where the warlord hosted famous sakura viewing party in 1598, also he donated money for the temple restoration.


Hideyoshi Connection to Kyoto (I read over much of the AB Document for Kyoto)

Part of the Daigo-ji property
"The Sanpoin Teien (garden), remodelled by Toyotomi Hideyoshi in 1598, is a
Special Place of Scenic Beauty." - AB Document

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