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Author winterkjm
Registered
#151 | Posted: 30 Jul 2012 20:34 
Perhaps there should be a rule if the marathon started or ended at a WHS then it should be included. If it just passes by, or even through it should not count. In this way the Great Wall and Mexico city would still be in, but many of the ones we seem unsure about are out.

Author meltwaterfalls
Registered
#152 | Posted: 31 Jul 2012 05:11 
evilweevil:
The Olympic sailing competition in 1980 took place off Tallinn, not Riga. But a WHS nonetheless...

hmmm... I have no idea why I wrote Riga up there when I was even looking to see if I had visited anything mildly Olympic (another list to tick off) when I was in Tallinn earlier this year. Oh well thanks for picking it up.

Author Durian
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#153 | Posted: 16 Aug 2012 20:19 
I have a question, what is the different between these two connection "Built in the 20th century" and "Contains significant structures from the 20th Century"?

My understand is the "Built in the 20th century" mean all site is built entirely in 20th century e.g. Sydney Opera House, Genbaku Dome, Warsaw and for "Contains significant structures from the 20th Century" mean while most of the sites are come from other century, but there are important building that built in 20th century e.g. Chaillot Palace in Paris, Rio's Chirst Redeemer, which I think a clear seperation. But when look definition of "Built in the 20th century" connection, it turns to be "WHS (or significant parts thereof) were all constructed between 1901 and 2000"! so these two connections are the same or not?

Author elsslots
Admin
#154 | Posted: 16 Aug 2012 23:56 
Durian:
but there are important building that built in 20th century

yes that's the right difference
the text is not clear, I will change that

Author Durian
Registered
#155 | Posted: 17 Aug 2012 04:48 
elsslots:
I will change that


So we have to revise some sites for the connection. Luang Prabang's Palace, Rabat, Riga need to move to "Contains significant structures from the 20th Century".

Author elsslots
Admin
#156 | Posted: 17 Aug 2012 06:27 
Durian:
Luang Prabang's

I would still stand by the qualification of Built in the 20th century for Luang Prabang as a whole (AB ev: "in the years between 1915 and 1925 a new concept, that of urbanizatlon, was Introduced") - it's the mix of traditional and french (arriving in 1893) that was rewarded, and its buildings are not that old in general

>> Rabat has the same story

To be clear: the Connection cannot be for both, it's either Built in the 20th as a whole, or Built in another century but containing a significant structure of the 20th century

Author Durian
Registered
#157 | Posted: 17 Aug 2012 10:47 
elsslots:
Built in the 20th century for Luang Prabang as a whole


If we considered on the ground that Luang Prabang is listed by its urbanization in the 20th century, it may OK with the "Built in the 20th century" connection, but to say it entirely built in 20th century is questionable as a temple and stupas are much older. I agree with you that the connection cannot be for both, but if we are going to put it in "Built in the 20th century" connection we may need a bit clarification to prevent misunderstanding.

Author Durian
Registered
#158 | Posted: 26 Aug 2012 20:39 
Hiroshima Peace Memorial - Cenotaph Connection

Only the Genbaku Dome is inscribed, the peace park where the cenotaph located is in the buffer zone.

Author winterkjm
Registered
#159 | Posted: 31 Aug 2012 14:23 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I am pretty sure Isabella Bird visited Changdeokgung palace, but it is hard to judge from her writings. She spent considerable time at Gyeongbokgung palace (written Kyeng-pok in her writing). She often mentions an ancient palace and described a throne room. There is also a picture of the throne room which to me looks identical to the one in Changdeokgung palace.

She also described dolmen, (but in present-day North Korea). She visited many parts of the peninsula Seoul, Pyongyang, Wonsan, Mt. Geumgang, Busan, Cheoncheon, Danyang, Goyang, Paju, Kaesong. Perhaps much more, from what I gleamed so far.

Author Durian
Registered
#160 | Posted: 1 Sep 2012 07:00 | Edited by: Durian 
Joseon Tombs and Isabella Bird

I quite confused with Bird explanation on the Princess tomb. Since UNESCO inscribed only the king and queen tombs, so it may possible or impossible to link the tomb with the connection. But then when I look at the map there are some tombs of royal princes, princesses, concubines in the core zone of Seooreung and Seosamreung, and maybe Hongyureung so actually UNESCO did inscribe the tombs of lower rank royal family.

The question is all these tombs are so near to the tombs of king and queen, that almost impossible for Bird not know these! Then I found out that originally it was prohibited to place king and queen's tombs with that of concubines, princes, and princess, and it was Japanese government that move these royal tombs to be with the King and Queen tombs. So if Bird visited these royal tombs at her time, those prince or princess tombs were somewhere else! That mean the princess tomb which Bird visited should be located somewhere isolately and maybe far from the current inscribed WHS!

Author winterkjm
Registered
#161 | Posted: 3 Sep 2012 01:38 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I think it can be assumed that she likely visited an inscribed area. Her sketch is of a large tomb guardian, less important tombs sometimes did not even include this feature.

Furthermore, her understanding of layout, design, and purpose leads me to believe she visited more than 1 tomb area. It should be noted, she uses the "Princess Tomb" as an example. She describes "Royal Tombs" in great detail. The "Princess tomb" itself is not mentioned much, it is mosty featured in the sketch.

Offcourse, trying to figure out if she visited an inscribed tomb with 100% certainty is proably a useless excercise. Though I feel it is more likely than not.

Here is the main passages, it goes on more. But this is the part that I felt justified the connection. A sketch (titled "Princess Tomb") is included.

"The amount of good land occupied by the dead is incredible. The grave of a member of the Royal family on a hill creates a solitude for a considerable distance around. In the case of rich and great men as well as of princes the grave is a lofty grassy mound often encircled by a massive stone railing with the hill terraced in front and excavated in a horse shoe shape behind. A stone altar and stone lanterns are placed in front and the foot of the hill, as at the "Princess's Tomb", is often occupied by a temple like building containing tablets with the name and rank of the dead. The Royal tombs are approached by stately avenues of gigantic stone figures possibly a harmless survival of the practice of offering human and other sacrifices at a burial. These figures represent a priest, a warrior in armour, a servant, a pony, and a sheep. The poorer dead occupy hillsides in numbers, resting under grass mounds on small platforms of grass always neatly kept. The lucky place for interment is in all cases chosen by the geomancer. Behind rich men's graves, pines are usually planted in a crescent. The dead population of the hillsides round Seoul is simply enormous. Funerals usually go out near dusk with a great display of coloured lanterns." - Korea and It's Neighbors pg. 63-65

"A few of the grander tombs are approached by a short avenue of stone figures of warriors horses servants and sheep. The peasants houses do not differ from those of the poorer classes in Seoul. [note] Such figures where they occur are always spoken of by foreigners as sheep, but I doubt whether this animal appears at any but royal tombs, where it is probably represented as offered in sacrifice by the King." - Korea and It's Neighbors pg. 83

Author winterkjm
Registered
#162 | Posted: 4 Sep 2012 01:19 | Edited by: winterkjm 
I think it is almost certain Isabella Bird visited the grounds of royal tombs of kings and queens, where she was free to walk the passageway to the burial ground and view the T-shaped shrine, and ancestral tablets. Her description of the tombs of the royal family and its solitude on the hillside, tells me she likely viewed some royal tombs from the burial grounds, not the tomb mound itself.

Perhaps concerning the "Princess tomb" she sketched, this may be the only tomb she was able to view next to the burial mound itself. Moreover, there are some prince and princess tomb's included in inscribed areas. I have seen some of these tombs myself. Regardless, if they were moved or not, if she viewed the tomb structures, statues, and ancestral tablets of a site that were later moved, it doesn't seem to discount the fact she visited that specific royal individual and the outstanding aspects of the site.

Information about royal tombs of both princes and princesses is included in the nomination documents. The focus of the nomination is certainly kings and queens, yet there is importance placed on other members of the royal family as well.

"There are a total of 119 tombs of Joseon royal families when all ranks of royalty are included. This count includes the tombs of kings and their consorts and of princes and princesses." - Nomination File

"It is especially noteworthy that all of the royal burial grounds, including those of princes and princesses, are maintained in perfect condition." - Nomination File

Author Durian
Registered
#163 | Posted: 4 Sep 2012 05:06 | Edited by: Durian 
winterkjm:
free to walk the passageway to the burial ground and view the T-shaped shrine, and ancestral tablets.


It is important to be noted that not only the tomb of the King and Queen that has passageway and shrine, many tombs of princes, princess, concubine which built in the style called "won" still preserved all of these element. So it is not guarantee that Bird did visit King and Queen Tombs.

However I did fascinated with Bird's wording
winterkjm:
The Royal tombs are approached by stately avenues of gigantic stone figures
this kind of avenue can be found at King Gojong Tomb, but the tomb buit after Bird's visit. So her wordings on avenue may actually be the group of stone figures that can be found in every royal tombs of high rank royals. Since the princely tombs in WHS boundery zone were moved to this place by Japanese after Bird's visit to destroy the royal tradition and made King tombs to be less sacre and in some case by the Korean Government own decision of preservation, or built after her visit like the case of Gojong's descendant, I still have doubt on the connection, but I have no objection not desire to link the site with any possible connection, I just download Bird's journey story and start to read it, for my long fright to South Africa :), to find acceptable evidence to support the connection.

Author winterkjm
Registered
#164 | Posted: 22 Sep 2012 01:47 
Durian:
I just download Bird's journey story and start to read it, for my long fright to South Africa :), to find acceptable evidence to support the connection.


Durian, I was wondering what you thought about Bird's descriptions of the "Mulberry Palace"?

Seemingly this is Changdeokgung palace, she mentions a pond, located on a hillside, with a fine audience hall, etc. These seem to point more toward Changdeokgung, yet I can find no other example of a palace in Seoul ever being called the "Mulberry Palace".

She mentions Gyeongbok palace by name plenty of times, and this description does not fit. Furthemore, she mentions the newly built palace (Deoksogung), which Gojong built in part for his own safety. So it is not these two palaces for sure. So it is either Changdeokgung, Changyeonggung, or the minor Gyeonghuigung.

Author Durian
Registered
#165 | Posted: 23 Sep 2012 04:59 
winterkjm:
Durian, I was wondering what you thought about Bird's descriptions of the "Mulberry Palace"?


Greeting from Jo'Burg, Winterkjm,

I think I know this answer as my guide told me during my trip to Gyeonghuigung that westerner called this palace as Mulberry Place since mulberry was planted here for silk making research (or something). ^^

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