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Missing Countries

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Author winterkjm
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#76 | Posted: 14 Oct 2015 16:00 
Beijing 1?
Seoul 1?
Mexico City 1?

I am confused Beijing has 3 WHS in the city proper. Seoul has 3 WHS in the city proper. Mexico City has 2 WHS (3 if you count Camino Real).

Author Solivagant
Registered
#77 | Posted: 14 Oct 2015 16:12 
Khuft:
I think this list only covers the population according to the administrative definition of the city according to local law.

I knew that this list only covered the admin definition of each city, but I had no idea that Paris proper had such a small population as to fall below the 3 million cut off of this list! Presumably only covers "inside the ring" - a lot of which is "business" rather than "living"

Author Solivagant
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#78 | Posted: 14 Oct 2015 16:43 
winterkjm:
I am confused Beijing has 3 WHS in the city proper. Seoul has 3 WHS in the city proper. Mexico City has 2 WHS

The "1" isn't a count of sites within a city - it is a "Yes" that the city has a WHS - thus 27 out of those 85 cities had at least 1 WHS (and therefore were not, as jonathanfr originally suggested looking for - "unrepresented cities")

Author Colvin
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#79 | Posted: 14 Oct 2015 18:48 
So if New York City's World Heritage Site is not in the city proper, but on the outskirts, does that mean Turaif Quarter in Al-Diriyyah should count for Riyadh, since it is on the outskirts of the city?

Author Durian
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#80 | Posted: 15 Oct 2015 01:01 | Edited by: Durian 
Nanjing, Shenyang and Ningbo have WHS - First Tomb of Ming Emperor in Nanjing, Shenyang Imperial Palace and Ningbo's Grand Canal. Funny is Tokyo actually has WHS, Ogasawara Island, more than 1000 km aways from city center, but still part of Tokyo.

Author Solivagant
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#81 | Posted: 15 Oct 2015 02:02 
Durian:
Funny is Tokyo actually has WHS, Ogasawara Island, more than 1000 km aways from city center, but still part of Tokyo.

I have just checked the notes from the Wiki table of "Cities Proper by Population" which I used above and indeed Ogaswara Distirct IS included in the stats for that city's area and population so they should be counted!! The situation reminds me of Hamburg where it also has a WHS (but not its only one) in an exclave beyond its boundaries - in its case the islands of the Hamburg Wadden Sea National Park! Does anyone know of a 3rd for a Connection. In fact I have just thought of one - Liberty Island with its Statue of Liberty is totally separated from NYC by waters belonging to Jersey City. So - Els a new Connection "Cities having a WHS situated on an administrative exclave"
I have corrected the table below for errors identified above (replaced Ho Chi Minh by Hanoi, added Nanjing, Shenyang, Ningbo and Tokyo) leaving 31 out of the 85 largest "Cities Proper by Population as having a WHS.
City 1= Have WHS
1 Shanghai
2 Karachi
3 Beijing 1
4 Tianjin 1
5 Istanbul 1
6 Lagos
7 Tokyo 1
8 Guangzhou
9 Mumbai 1
10 Moscow 1
11 Dhaka
12 Cairo 1
13 São Paulo
14 Shenzhen
15 Seoul 1
16 Lahore 1
17 Jakarta
18 Kinshasa
19 Mexico City 1
20 Lima 1
21 New York City 1
22 London 1
23 Bengaluru
24 Bangkok
25 Dongguan
26 Chongqing
27 Nanjing 1
28 Tehran 1
29 Shenyang 1
30 Ahmedabad
31 Bogotá
32 Ho Chi Minh City
33 Ningbo 1
34 Hong Kong
35 Baghdad
36 Changsha
37 Wuhan
38 Hyderabad
39 Hanoi 1
40 Rio de Janeiro 1
41 Foshan
42 Santiago
43 Riyadh
44 Singapore 1
45 Shantou
46 Yangon
47 Saint Petersburg 1
48 Ankara
49 Pune
50 Chennai
51 Abidjan
52 Chengdu 1
53 Alexandria
54 Kolkata
55 Xi'an 1
56 Surat
57 Johannesburg
58 Dar es Salaam
59 Suzhou 1
60 Harbin
61 Giza 1
62 Izmir
63 Zhengzhou
64 New Taipei City
65 Los Angeles
66 Cape Town 1
67 Yokohama
68 Busan
69 Hangzhou 1
70 Xiamen
71 Quanzhou
72 Berlin 1
73 Jeddah 1
74 Durban
75 Kabul
76 Jaipur 1
77 Hefei
78 Pyongyang 1
79 Madrid
80 Ekurhuleni
81 Nairobi
82 Zhongshan
83 Ürümqi
84 Addis Ababa
85 Wenzhou
Have WHS 31 out of 85

Author Solivagant
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#82 | Posted: 15 Oct 2015 03:40 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Colvin:
So if New York City's World Heritage Site is not in the city proper, but on the outskirts, does that mean Turaif Quarter in Al-Diriyyah should count for Riyadh, since it is on the outskirts of the city?

Hi Colvin, welcome to the Forum!
In response to jonathanfr's suggestion above I have just tried to use consistently the "rules" of the definition of a "City" as per this Wiki list ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population ). There are other lists based on different rules ( e.g World's largest Urban Areas. largest Metropolitan Areas, largest Conurbations etc - all are available on the Web). All have their weaknesses and peculiarities. Anyone can do the same analysis using any of the other definitions if they wish (though it might be better to start up a new topic as this one doesn't really best reside here!!). I felt that this definition provided an objective definition of a city whereas the identification of e.g "Metropolitan Area" is subject to subjective factors (Wiki states "There is currently no generally accepted, globally consistent definition of exactly what constitutes a metropolitan area, thus making comparisons between cities in different countries especially difficult. However, for consistency, the sources on this article include figures from official governments only.")

As regards the "Al-Diriyyah as part of Riyadh" v "Liberty Island as part of NYC" issue
a. Liberty Island is within NYC as per the definition of the Wiki list ("Cities Proper") Wiki sates "The island is an exclave of the New York City borough of Manhattan, surrounded by the waters of Jersey City,"
b. As far as I can see, Al-Diriyyah is not administratively part of Riyadh. Note 97 of the Wiki list states that "Riyadh is divided into 15 branch municipalities, in addition to the Diplomatic Quarter. Each branch municipality in turn contains several districts, amounting to over 130 in total, though some districts are divided between more than one branch municipality. The branch municipalities are Al-Shemaysi, Irqah, Al-Ma'athar, Al-Olayya, Al-Aziziyya, Al-Malaz, Al-Selayy, Nemar, Al-Neseem, Al-Shifa, Al-'Urayja, Al-Bat'ha, Al-Ha'ir, Al-Rawdha, and Al-Shimal ("the North"). So - no Al-Diriyyah??

Author Colvin
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#83 | Posted: 15 Oct 2015 05:08 
Fair enough, since Al Diriyyah isn't administratively part of Riyadh, although it is effectively in its metropolitan area. As for the Statue of Liberty, both New Jersey and New York City lay claim to the statue, though I'm reluctant to take sides there (I'd probably come down on the side of the U.S. federal government rather than choose either if I were forced to choose). I'd think most of the world associates the statue with NYC anyways, and the fact the island the statue is on is a Manhattan exclave (with NYC taxes) makes sense for counting the statue for the city.

Author meltwaterfalls
Registered
#84 | Posted: 15 Oct 2015 05:32 | Edited by: meltwaterfalls 
winterkjm:
Mexico City has 2 WHS (3 if you count Camino Real)

I know that wasn't the indication of the 1, but wouldn't Mexico City be 3, Historic Centre, Casa Barragan, UNAM (4 with the Camino Real)?

Another batch of cities that I've found interesting in the past is the list of "Global Cities". It has its flaws but focuses on other aspects aside from size. I did a quick back of a fag packet run through below, I'm sure I made some errors.

Alpha++
New York 1
London 4

Alpha+
Tokyo 0
Hong Kong 0
Singapore 1
Shanghai 0
Sydney 2
Dubai 0
Beijing 4
Paris 2

Alpha
Chicago 0
Mumbai 2
Milan 1
Moscow 3
São Paulo 0
Frankfurt 0
Toronto 0
Los Angeles 0
Madrid 0
Mexico City 4
Amsterdam 1
Kuala Lumpur 0
Brussels 2

Alpha–
Seoul 3
New Delhi 3
Johannesburg 0
Buenos Aires 0
Vienna 2
San Francisco 0
Istanbul 1
Jakarta 0
Zürich 0
Warsaw 1
Washington D.C. 0
Melbourne 1
Miami 0
Barcelona 2
Bangkok 0
Boston 0
Dublin 0
Taipei 0
Munich 0
Stockholm 1
Atlanta 0
Prague 1

EDIT: Just checked this source and saw that Prague and Seoul were missing from my original list. It also has the next cities in the lists, Beta, Gamma, High Sufficiency and Sufficency.

Author Colvin
Registered
#85 | Posted: 15 Oct 2015 05:41 
Also, in regard to the WHS in a city exclave connection, would the Holy See's extraterritorial properties in Rome count for that connection, since they are fully within Rome, but are owned by the Vatican and have diplomatic immunity as such? Or would Vatican City even qualify as a city for your definitions since it is more a nation state with an extremely low population?

Author Solivagant
Registered
#86 | Posted: 15 Oct 2015 06:36 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Colvin:
Also, in regard to the WHS in a city exclave connection, would the Holy See's extraterritorial properties in Rome count for that connection, since they are fully within Rome, but are owned by the Vatican and have diplomatic immunity as such? Or would Vatican City even qualify as a city for your definitions since it is more a nation state with an extremely low population?

It depends on how we draw the rules - but my feeling is "no". See this about the boundaries between the Holy See/Vatican City (2 different entities) and extraterritorial properties in Rome - http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/601-bigger-than-you-think-the-vatican-and-its-annexe s
I am no lawyer but the picture I get is that "Extraterritoriality" is not the same as complete "ownership" by the entity having the extraterritorial rights.
So, to compare - Liberty Island (above its normal water line) is a full part of the Manhattan Borough of NYC and the Ogasawara Islands are a full sub prefecture of Tokyo. However, having "extra territorial status" does not mean that the exclaves of the Holy See are fully part of it - yet alone of the "City of the Vatican" - merely that, whilst still being part of Italy but being owned by the Holy See they have certain immunities.
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritoriality#Current_examples and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_the_Holy_See

Author jonathanfr
Registered
#87 | Posted: 15 Oct 2015 09:24 | Edited by: jonathanfr 
mosttraveledpeople vs. travelerscenturyclub

Hello, a list of countries (193 + 2 observer members + 2 associated states) officially headquartered in the United Nations is not necessarily relevant, two interesting websites for travelers that we are insatiable. Two different but complementary approaches. I'll let you explore their contents. Maybe we could divide the 1031 properties in each of the two lists of geographical entities (875 vs. 324).

875http://mosttraveledpeople.com/
http://mosttraveledpeople.com/Rank-WHS.php
http://mosttraveledpeople.com/Rank-WHSRank.php

324http://www.instinct-voyageur.fr/il-y-a-324-pays-dans-le-monde-et-non-197-pays/
http://travelerscenturyclub.org/countries-and-territories

http://thebesttravelled.com/fr/about/#rationale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_pays_du_monde

So, 193 ? 195 ? 197 ? 200 with Antarctica/Kosovo/Taiwan ? 206 ? 324 ? 875 ? 1281 ? ...

Author winterkjm
Registered
#88 | Posted: 10 Nov 2015 04:09 | Edited by: winterkjm 
Solivagant:
I note by the way that Kosovo failed to gain membership of UNESCO by 3 votes the other day so that was another diplomatic issue postponed for a while longer

Kosovo fails to get the votes! They vowed another vote will not be too long in the waiting.

Keep in mind the US could not support Kosovo because it lost its right to vote (dues). Japan, South Korea and Poland abstained. Spain and Ukraine voted No.

Kosovo's deputy foreign minister, Petrit Selimi, said: "It's a small setback in a very long journey. We already won a big battle when we achieved peace ... The majority of the world wants to see Kosovo inside Unesco. We were only three votes short."

Serbia's president, Tomislav Nikolić, said he welcomed the decision. "This is a just and moral victory gained in almost impossible conditions, when what is right cannot count on the support of the majority," he said

http://news.yahoo.com/unesco-begins-divisive-debate-kosovo-membership-105812632.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/09/kosovo-fails-in-unesco-membership-bid

The countries that voted against were Angola, Argentina, Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Botswana, Brazil, Chile, China, Cyprus, Congo, Cuba, Ecuador, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Georgia, Guatemala, Guinea, India, Indonesia, Kazakhstan , Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Morocco, Mauritius, Mozambique, Mexico, Myanmar, Namibia, Nicaragua, Uganda, Palestine, Paraguay, Philippines, Syria, Moldova, the Democratic Republic of Congo, People's Democratic Republic of Lao, People's Democratic Republic of (North) Korea, the Russian Federation, Serbia, Slovakia, South Africa, South Sudan, Spain, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Uruguay, Venezuela, Zimbabwe.

Those who abstained included Algeria, Bangladesh, Barbuda, Bhutan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Burundi, Cameroon, Comoros, Egypt, Greece, Guinea-Bissau, Jamaica, Japan, Kenya, Mali, Nepal, Nigeria, Peru, Poland, Central African Republic, the Republic of (South) Korea, Romania, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Singapore, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Vietnam, Zambia.

Author Solivagant
Registered
#89 | Posted: 10 Nov 2015 05:58 | Edited by: Solivagant 
winterkjm:
The countries that voted against were

People might find this wiki article containing statements made by many of the World's states regarding their views on Kosovo of interest. Spain with its Catalonia issue is no surprise but Bolivia is concerned about its eastern provinces and Mauritius wants the Chagos Islands back!! Others like Venezuela see it as part of a US wide plot! Many just see it as an issue of International Law interpretation (or claim to!)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo

Author winterkjm
Registered
#90 | Posted: 7 Jan 2016 15:06 
Assif:
3) Member states and special territories with no T-list (18):
Sao Tome, Equatorial Guinea, Niue, Cook Islands, Liberia, Brunei, Monaco, Bahamas, Chechnya (Russia), French Guyana (France), Faroe (Denmark), Man (UK), Bougainville (PNG), Marianas and Guam (USA), Falkland and Southern Georgia (UK), Chagos (UK), Tokelau (NZ), Navajo Nation (USA).

4) Member states and special territories with T-list but no sites proposed (13):
Eritrea, Swaziland, Burundi, Comoros, Samoa, Bhutan, Trinidad Tobago, Grenada, St Vincent, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Djibouti, British Caribbean (UK), Jan Mayen and Svalbard (Norway).

6) Member states and special territories with sites proposed but none inscribed currently pursuing nomination (9):
Maldives (running 2017), Gibraltar - UK (running 2016), Angola (incomplete 2016), French Polynesia - France (running 2017), Tonga (running 2017), Kuwait (running 2017), French Caribbean - France (running 2018), Micronesia (running 2016), Antigua and Barbuda (running 2016)

Great to see Bahamas with a Tentative List. Small changes to our missing countries list. Bahamas and Eritrea.

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