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Author Solivagant
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#31 | Posted: 21 Oct 2014 02:53 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I have noticed a couple of examples where this Web site states that a WHS has only 1 location when the UNESCO Web site (correctly) shows them to have more
Bellinzone - has 3
Vizcaino - has 2

More interestingly, there are a number of WHS where UNESCO has them identified as "Single Location" when their maps, documentation or else just plain "common sense" show them to have "Multiple Locations". We had Falun identified already but I noticed a few more by doing a quick run through all the "single location" sites - I could well have missed others! In the case of Falun the difference could be put down to a different interpretation of what constitutes "multiple locations" - though consistency really requires it to be "multiple". Some of the other examples possibly demonstrate the lack of clarity about what actually did get inscribed especially in the early years of the scheme or else some "problem" relating to the site and its management!

I suggest a new "Connection". That would enable us to display (as now) the "official" UNESCO numbers of locations in the "count" whilst highlighting via the "Connection" those WHS which have more locations than the official statement -
"Single Location" WHS with multiple locations
WHS which are shown on the UNESCO Web site as being single locations with no separate Serial IDs but whose map and/or description clearly shows that they contain multiple (i.e 2 or more) geographically separated locations
Falun -3 locations - Falun and Ostera-bergsgarden, Hosjo and Sundbornsan Valley, Knivaĺn Valley
Carlsbad Caverns - 2 locations- Main Cavern area, Rattlesnake Springs
Cusco - 4 locations - Town centre based on the Zocalo, La Almudena Church, Belen Church and Sq, Santiago Church and Sq
Tyre - No of locations not clear. The "Reactive Monitoring Mission" of 2012 had considerable difficulty in establishing boundaries for the property using documentation provided from the time of inscription onwards. The UNESCO Web site description makes it clear however that there are at least 2 separate inscribed areas "In the modern town of Soűr, the property consists of two distinct sites: the one of the town, on the headland, and the one of the Necropolis of El Bass, on the continent."
Kii Mountains. No of locations not clear (the UNESCO documentation lacks the detailed map in App 1c!!) but certainly more than 1 - "In all, the nominated site covers 495.3 ha. This is made up of the three main sites, which cover 44.8, 94.2, and 63.1 ha respectively, and 307.6 km of pilgrimage routes, which together cover 293.2 ha. The pilgrim routes nominated are not all contiguous as there are sections excluded where they have been influenced by modern development. All parts of the nominated site are protected by a buffer zone, which varies in extent from element to element – some of the routes only being protected by a very narrow zone. The whole buffer zone covers 11,370ha." (AB eval) See this map which presumably shows in light colours the non-inscribed portions of the routes which must therefore create separate inscribed sections - http://www.sekaiisan-wakayama.jp/english/sisan_index.htm
Asante Traditional Buildings. No of locations not clear. We know that between 10 and 13 buildings were inscribed. Whilst some may be "adjacent" to and therefore potentially in the same "location" as another, others are widely scattered around or many kms from Kumasi and therefore must be separate "locations"

Author elsslots
Admin
#32 | Posted: 21 Oct 2014 08:58 
Solivagant:
I have noticed a couple of examples where this Web site states that a WHS has only 1 location when the UNESCO Web site (correctly) shows them to have moreBellinzone - has 3Vizcaino - has 2

I guess I made a mistake, I'll change them (I had 1 as default value)

Author hubert
Registered
#33 | Posted: 21 Oct 2014 15:38 
Solivagant:
"Single Location" WHS with multiple locations

I have found a few more:

Reims (France): 2 locations - the Cathedral Notre Dame and Abbey Saint-Rémi/Palais de Tau - the map even gives serial-ID numbers, but they are not listed as multiple locations

Royal Saltworks (France): 2 locations - Salins-les-Bains and Arc-et-Senans - initially I thought that the two locations are connected, but the legend of the map and the indicated size (10 ha) suggest that the waterway is part of the buffer zone (a kind of "linear buffer zone")

Bardejov (Slovakia): 2 locations - the fortified town centre and the small Jewish quarter - the map is not detailed but shows two different locations

Hortobagy (Hungary): no separate map, but the maps in the nomination file (page 50/51 and 95/100) show about ten different areas of various size

Author winterkjm
Registered
#34 | Posted: 25 Oct 2014 13:11 
Seokguram Grotto and Bulguksa Temple (Korea): 2 locations - no indication of a separate serial ID or map.

Author hubert
Registered
#35 | Posted: 10 Nov 2014 16:15 
Two more for this connection:

Rammelsberg and Goslar: The Upper Harz Water Management (2010 extension) has only one ID but multiple locations. The nomination file lists 719 ponds, ditches and water tunnels (several of them may be contiguous, but there are still plenty of different locations), plus specific monuments such as Walkenried monastery, Samson mine, Rosenhof wheel chambers, Knesebeck Shaft, Ottiliae Shaft, Kaiser Wilhelm II Shaft.

Bahá'i Holy Places in Haifa and the Western Galilee: 11 locations in 9 buffer zones (page 2 of the nomination document)

Author Solivagant
Registered
#36 | Posted: 11 Nov 2014 04:03 | Edited by: Solivagant 
And ,more -
Bagherat - shown as only having a single location but apparently having 2.
"Today,the monuments of Khalifata-bad, which have been partially disengaged from the vegetation, may be divided into two principal zones 6.5 kms apart :
to the West, around the mosque of Shait Gurrbad, renowned for its large prayer room, divided into seven longitudinal naves; and to the East, around the mausoleum of Khan Jahan. More than 50 monuments have been catalogued: in the first group, the mosques of Singar, Bibi Begni and Clumakkola; and in the second, the mosques of Reza Khoda, Zindavir and Ranvijoypur." (AB evaluation). This text is repeated in the UNESCO Web site description. The (not very good) map in the AB (and separately on the UNESCO Web site) confirms the 2 separate "proposed monument areas" with "hatching" and clearly distinguished from each other. There is no indication from the maps that the 2 zones are that far apart but I do dimly remember having to drive between them when we visited back in 2006.

Fasil Ghebbi - at 2 or more locations
"The fortress city functioned as the centre of the Ethiopian government until 1864. It has some twenty palaces, royal buildings, highly decorated churches, monasteries and unique public and private buildings, transformed by the Baroque style brought to Gondar by the Jesuit missionaries. The main castle has huge towers and looming battlemented walls, resembling a piece of medieval Europe transposed to Ethiopia. Beyond the confines of the city to the north-west by the Qaha River, there is a two-storey pavilion of a bathing palace associated to Emperor Fasilidas. The building is a two-storey battlemented structure situated within and on one side of a rectangular pool of water which was supplied by a canal from the nearby river."
However the AB evaluation states "Aux environs immediats de Gondar, d'autres
ensembles monumentaux significatifs sont proposes pour inscription....... Ce sont, a
1.200 m au nord-est de Fasil Ghebi, Debre Berhan Selassie, a 1.500m environ au
nord-ouest et a l'ouest, les deux sites distincts des Bains de Fassilides et de Kuddus
Yohannes, avec son eglise circulaire; enfin, a 3.000m au nord-ouest, le remarquable
ensemble fortifie de Cusquam comprenant a l'ouest, le monastere avec son eglise
circulaire et son enceinte propre, a l'est la zone residentielle royale avec le palais et
l'oratoire de l'imperatrice Mentuab dans une enceinte' elliptique accolee a celIe de
l'abbaye"


There is no UNESCO map available and the area of the site(s) isn't provided either. I have looked at Google and the "Ensemble fortifie de Cusquam" (Kusquam) is situated as stated to the NW of the "historic centre across a river, a main road and the "University of Gondar Hospital". There seems no way that this could be in the same "inscribed unit" as the main Fasil Ghebbi -even if the Baths and Debre Berhan Selassie Church are grouped into the same location (We visited way back in 1995 and I do remember that we drove out to the baths and Church)
This document would seem to confirm that "The archaeological site of Kusquam is one
of the sites in the city, along with Fasil Ghebbo and Bagni di Fasil,
". That it is "Located just
a few kilometers from the center
" and that it is set well away from the other sites "To reach the site you must travel a dirt road, understood that the Taxi Company are not well prepared to accompany visitors, so it was thought to provide a "vehicle" alternative: the donkey."!!
www.architesi.polito.it/pdf/3922_uk_abs.pdf

Author elsslots
Admin
#37 | Posted: 5 Nov 2017 07:25 
Solivagant:
Fasil Ghebbi - at 2 or more locations

The Fasil Ghebbi description at the UNESCO website now (2017) says it consists of 8 locations
I think we should correct the locations at our website accordingly. And it can be removed also from the connection "Incorrect number of locations" (as there is no map available to dispute these 8).

See: http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/19/

Author Solivagant
Registered
#38 | Posted: 5 Nov 2017 08:53 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
The Fasil Ghebbi description at the UNESCO website now (2017) says it consists of 8 locations
I think we should correct the locations at our website accordingly. And it can be removed also from the connection "Incorrect number of locations" (as there is no map available to dispute these 8).

Yes - with these location names we ought to be able to identify co-ordinates!!
However, re the removal from the "Connection" - our definition of this is "WHS whose Serial ID number on the UNESCO Web site which identifies the number of separate locations is incorrect"
As far as I can see the serial number is STILL incorrect since, although the text identifies the locations (I wonder if it already did back when we did the inscribed coordinates and we just missed it - it would require a search on Wayback Machine****), the Serial ID numbers still haven't been specified by UNESCO. Indeed. we are going to have to create our own! The Text DOES need changing however - eg
"Although the description mentions 8 locations these have not been identified as such with UNESCO ID numbersI"
In this respect it seems to be the same as e.g Cuzco??
**** PS. I have just checked and the site received a "new" description around July 2014 which included the section headed "Brief Synthesis" which mentions the 7 locations outside the central palace complex. So this info WAS available when we did the coordinates for inscribed sites (during 2015???).

Author elsslots
Admin
#39 | Posted: 5 Nov 2017 11:38 | Edited by: elsslots 
I've added them in the order of the description. The only doubt is about "Thermal Area; the Sosinios (also known as Maryam Ghemb" - is this meant as 1 location and is the semi-colon in between an error? Otherwise there would be 9 locations.

Now the job is to find the coordinates for:
- Kiddush Yohannes
- Thermal Area; the Sosinios (also known as Maryam Ghemb)
- the Gorgora (Monastery and Church)
- the Palace of Guzara.

(the first 3 are easy and done, i've omitted them here)
Found Qusquam (Monastery and Church) using the directions provided by Solivagant above.

P.S: it may be that the 4 unknown sites above may not even be in Gondar. I found this for example: Susenyos' Old Palace in Gorgora?! https://www.lonelyplanet.com/ethiopia/gorgora/attractions/susenyos-old-palace/a/poi-s ig/1423750/1337186

P.P.S.: About Maryam Ghemb : "Fassilides' father, Socinios (1607-32). lndeed, the earliest monument in Gondar, the church of Maryam Ghemb, almost certainly dates from this period. lt is designed in a pure Baroque style" and "Mariam Ghemb Sysenyos is an hour west of Gorgora, Tana;s northern town, and at its crest are the ruins of the castle and cathedral, built along the lines of a European Covent for the Portuguese Jesuits during Emperor Susenious reign (1607-320)." -> have not found a reputable location yet, many sites are called Mariam

Author Solivagant
Registered
#40 | Posted: 5 Nov 2017 14:19 | Edited by: Solivagant 
A lot of problems with alternative spellings!
No "firm answer" but some pointers which might be of help -

"The Gorgora (Monastery and Church"
"The Gorgora" would seem to refer to the village/town/port of the same name some 70 kms from Gondar by road on Lake Tana. Unfortunately there are a fair number of churches and Monasteries in the area - including some on islands in Lake Tana. Or does it refer to the entire peninsular??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgora

"The Palace of Guzara"
would seem likely to be what is described elsewere as "Guzara Palace"?? See - https://www.lonelyplanet.com/ethiopia/northern-ethiopia/attractions/guzara-castle/a/p oi-sig/1429829/355293
This actually states that it IS a WHS - http://www.laketana-biosphere.com/visit/guzara-castle/
Gazara is on google maps around 25kms north of Addis Zemen as stated on the above link but I can't as yet exactly locate the castle.
Another article puts it near Tulu Ghereccia which is some kms further north.

"the Sosinios (also known as Maryam Ghemb)".
See para 433 of this - http://tegnestuen-raadvad.dk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/masterplan.pdf
"Old Gorgora on the northern shore of Lake Tana, where Emperor Socinios (1607 - 1632) built a palace, known as Maryam Ghemb. Alongside
it is an unusual monasticchrchcomplex in the Baroque style with a ground plan closely reSerbling that of European convents; it also has finely carved
mouldings and other decorative elements."

Again Gorgora seems to be a key location.
Para 432 of this document also gives more info on Guzara

Author elsslots
Admin
#41 | Posted: 6 Nov 2017 00:28 | Edited by: elsslots 
Solivagant:
"The Palace of Guzara"
would seem likely to be what is described elsewere as "Guzara Palace"?? See - https://www.lonelyplanet.com/ethiopia/northern-ethiopia/attractions/guzara-castle/a/p oi-sig/1429829/355293
This actually states that it IS a WHS - http://www.laketana-biosphere.com/visit/guzara-castle/
Gazara is on google maps around 25kms north of Addis Zemen as stated on the above link but I can't as yet exactly locate the castle.
Another article puts it near Tulu Ghereccia which is some kms further north.

Here its coordinates are stated as: 12.234542, 37.635086 (which with google satellite view indeed points to a ruin of some kind). I'd say this is good enough.

Author Jasam
Registered
#42 | Posted: 6 Nov 2017 11:48 
About that "Incorrect UNESCO 'number of locations'" connection, I was thinking... Our first criteria is: "locations with no separate Serial IDs but whose map and/or description clearly shows that they contain multiple (i.e 2 or more) geographically separated locations." But what if it's the other way round? For instance, Granada has two serial IDs but only one component (AlbayzĂ­n was added 10 years after the original inscription of the Alhambra and the Generalife and since then the two locations nest together to form one big area).
Similarly, I have noticed that the boundaries of two or more components of a serial site sometimes overlap. It is the case for the Rock Art of the Mediterranean Basin (this one decidedly is a pain in the neck!). For instance, Abric de Can CastellvĂ­ and Abric de Can Ximet: shouldn't they form a component called "Abric de Can CastellvĂ­ and Abric de Can Ximet"? Isn't it what they usually do? I couldn't find anything about it in the operational guidelines though. But if they applied this rule to the aforementioned site, the number of its locations would be reduced by half or so (thus becoming more doable for those ticking off the Jackson/50%+1 way!).
Anyway, do you think these sites could qualify for the connection (at least Granada)?

Author Solivagant
Registered
#43 | Posted: 6 Nov 2017 12:20 | Edited by: Solivagant 
Have just remembered that I have a copy of Bradt Ethiopia (2005) in the loft - it has 1.5 pages on "Gorgora" which, I think shine a bit more light on matters. Unfortunately there is no usual "Bradt style" sketch map to help!
3 places of interest in/around Gorgora are mentioned
a. "The highlight of any visit to Gorgora will be a visit to the monastery of Debre Sina Maryam which lies along a motorable track 5 minutes walk from the town centre" ....."The present building, a fine example of a thatched circular church, probably dates to the 16th C alothugh the carved Axumite windows and frames might have been lifted from an earlier building"

b. "Also of interest in the Gorgora area is the Portuguese Cathedral built during Susneyo's day but abandoned after Fasiladas booted out the Catholic settlers. To reach the cathedral you either wlak along the lakeshore for several hours or head out of Gorgora for 8kms along the Gonder road then turn left at a small village and follow a track back to the lake for about 15kms,.... The Cathedral is now an overgrown ruin... but what does remain... is enough to hint at its former grandeur. There is talk of restoring the church with UNESCO help"

c. On a peninsular roughly 10kms west of Gorgora stands "Old Gorgora" and the ruined palace constructed by Emperor Susneyos between 1625 and 1630 with Portuguese assistance...... Old Gorgora can only be visited by boat.."

It would seem that "a" must be "The Gorgora Monastery and church"?? It is just a shame that these are not described specifically as "Debre Sina Maryam" and also the potential confusion about the use of "Maryam" ( but it is a common name for churches etc in Ethiopia).
It is a shame also that no mention is made of a "Maryam Ghemb" in the description of "c" but the palace would "seem" to be the same as that referred to in http://tegnestuen-raadvad.dk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/masterplan.pdf para 433 being "the Sosinios (also known as Maryam Ghemb)"

A slight problem is this Wiki description which doesn't totally match Bradt - ""Old" Gorgora was located 5 km northeast, inland from Maryam Gimb, which was called [New] Gorgora, and 5 km west of Debre Sina and its churches (usually not considered a town in its own right) - this when Wiki hasn't even mentioned "Maryam Gimb" until then!!! The description of the cathedral which can be "walked to" whereas the Palace at old Gorgora can only be reached by boat is also bit confusing!! Perhaps it isn't inscribed. I am still mystified by the reference to "Thermal Area" and question whether it really IS linked to "the Sosinios (also known as Maryam Ghemb)" The only "Thermal area" I have been able to find in the Tana area is a long way SE. and seems to have absolutely no "cultural" interest.

So - given the above - does it seem reasonable "a" and "c" are both situated around Gorgora and that they ARE respectively - Debre Sina Maryam and "Susneyo's palace." as described by Bradt??
If we can agree that we can perhaps use Google Satellite view etc to try to pinpoint coordinates!

Author Solivagant
Registered
#44 | Posted: 6 Nov 2017 13:38 | Edited by: Solivagant 
I think "The Gorgora Monastery and church" (aka "Debre Sina Maryam) is located here :.
12.242566, 37.301765

A TripAdvisor review of it states "the church is surrounded by matured thick forest with a beautiful view of Lake Tana"
Google maps satellite view using those coordinates provides a nice round thatched building situated in a forest next to the lake at the end of a motorable track from Gorgora!
See https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Debre+Sina+maryam/Gorgora,+Ethiopia/@12.2422436,37. 3007956,223m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x165cb2cd39335303:0xc61012b88f3b5af 9!2m2!1d37.2945303!2d12.238523!3e0?hl=en
A slight doubt exists over the fact that there are other churches/Monasteries near to (but not actually "at") Gorgora!!!!
E.g Mandaba - https://www.lonelyplanet.com/ethiopia/gorgora/attractions/mandaba-medhane-alem/a/poi- sig/1424600/1337186

Author Jasam
Registered
#45 | Posted: 6 Nov 2017 21:07 
I think:
Kiddush/Kidus/Qeddus Yohannes (Saint John): 12.60879, 37.45487
The Sosinios (also known as Maryam Ghemb): 12.19722, 37.21044
Link: https://www.ethiopia.travel/attractions/gondar-camelot-africa (click on "Tourist Map")

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