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WHS Map - the Data

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Author Solivagant
Registered
#46 | Posted: 3 Oct 2016 12:13 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
There are 4 locations within Taxila that are missing coordinates, among them the no. 1 location

Ah well – that provided a couple of hours of interesting investigation! When we visited Taxila we acquired a facsimile copy of the classic book by Sir John Marshall "A Guide to Taxila - Pub 1918 (The wonderful Lahore Museum has great bookshop by its front door which has loads of such goodies!). I have searched it for references to the locations we are missing and quote it below for the "clues" I used to identify the coordinates

139-016 Lalchak mounds
In fact as far as I can see both this AND
139-012 Lalchak and Badalpur Buddhist Stupa
seem to be missing from our coordinates

The second is quite easy. Marshall states "Of the great Stupa at Badalpur there is little that need be said. It is situated near the village of Bhera ......rather more than a mile east of Lalchak... In ancient days it must have been one of the most imposing monuments at Taxila"
The remains can clearly be seen on Google Sat view near the village of Bhera as stated by Marshall and I have chosen the centre of the Stupa
139-012 33.786732,72.868986

The first is a lot more difficult!
Marshall states "Lalchak is the local name given to a group of 4 small mounds between 100 and 200 yards from the NE corner of Sirsukh on the pathway to the village of Garhi Sayyandan". Since Sirsukh is around 5kms from the village of Bhera we must assume that this is a DIFFERENT "Lalchak" – though some Web sites place these mounds next to the Stupa -but perhaps they have been impacted by the name?. I have been unable to gather any information on these mounds from the Web and am reduced to suggesting that we use coordinates around 200 yards NE of Sirsukh but, unfortunately I am unable to make out any "mounds" in the area on Google Satellite view. A bit unsatisfactory really – an alternative is to leave the cords as "unknown"
139-016 33.774514,72.849474

139-017 Buddhist remains around Bhallar stupa Punjab, Pakistan
"occupies a commanding position on the last spur of the Sarda Hill which bounds the Haro valley to the north and is siyuated on the side of the Havelian Railway about 5 miles from Taxila station and half a mile north of the Haro River"(Marshall)
Following the railway north over the river there is a stupa identified on Google maps satellite view situated at.
139-017 33.813451,72.825316

139-018 Giri Mosque and tombs Punjab, Pakistan
Marshall identifies some monasteries at Giri and a 5th C Fort, recording that these are situated in "a secluded glen at Giri behind the villages of Khurram Pracha and Khurram Gujar.... South East from Dharmarajika Stupa"..... at the foot of the Margala Spur". But, being interested only in archaeological aspects, he makes NO mention of any mosque! Indeed it is surprising that Pakistan got this mosque included when it doesn't really have any connection with Taxila's OUV - but the very early AB Eval from 1979 makes no comment on this!!

We have Already identified coordinates for Location 009 "Giri Complex of Monuments" and it is clear both that these are the same monuments as described above by Marshall AND that they are in "the right place" as per his description! But what of the Mosque? The UNESCO Web site makes it clear that the Mosque and tombs are "part of"/very close to the larger monastery complex – "The Giri complex also includes the remains of a three-domed Muslim mosque, ziarat (tomb), and madrassa (school) of the medieval periods"

The Mosque and the Buddhist Complex are clearly visible close to each other on Google maps Satellite view and yield the following coordinates for each
018 Mosque – 33.728539,72.882688 (Here is a photo of the mosque – The top left photo here provides the profile of the mosque for comparing with Google satellite view - https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=giri%2 0mosque%20taxila%20photo )
009 Complex of Monuments – 33.728824,72.883349 (I would suggest altering any existing coords for this to ensure differentiation from the Mosque)

139-001 Khanpur Cave Punjab, Pakistan
Marshall of course provides no information on this location. The Cave is referred to in the AB evaluation as being a "Mesolithic Cave" - again its inclusion in what is primarily a Ghandaran site isn't questioned but is probably more justified than the Mosque in that it represents the very earliest occupation of the area. Various Web sites state that it is "near Mohra Murado Cave". But is that cave, as its name suggests, next to the similarly spelled "Mora Moradu Monastery" (Location 013)? I think not - a report by the guy from Minnesota University who excavated the cave in 1964 states that it is "located in the abrupt range rising on the north bank of the Haro River at the point where the road from Taxila to Haripur passes the community of Khanpur (Plate IV). Both caves lie about 300 ft above the Khanpur valley floor and both are visible from the road". Various Pakistani trsvel companies offer caving to both mentioned caves on the Web as part of adventure holidays from nearby Khanpur dam so I am happy to suggest the following coordinates as being within a few hundred metres of the cave
139-001 33.799207,72.909291

I would also suggest that we use Location 003 Bir Mound as the prime location for Taxila

Author nfmungard
Registered
#47 | Posted: 3 Oct 2016 13:12 
paul
Yes. But requires access to more than a Tablet so has to wait a week.

Author meltwaterfalls
Registered
#48 | Posted: 3 Oct 2016 13:19 
Colvin:
The maps look fantastic, Els and Nan! Will the main map page get updated with the 2016 World Heritage Sites, too?

I just want to echo Colvin's words, this is great. It looks really good and the drilling down to individual sites/users is great. Sadly I haven't been engaged much here recently, so I'm not fully abreast of where everything stands but I may be able to chip in with some bits, leave me a note and I will see what I can do.

I have updated the map on the main page, whether this stays in the long run (as it may be superseded by Nan's updated map) I don't know, perhaps we can have that discussion later. I have only put one location for each 2016 inscription at the moment (based on the UNESCO default location), will hopefully add the others in the next few days. With this will be a few corrections from previous cleaning session (including Colvin's data on the Antonine Wall). I've done it slightly on the hop so will tidy bits up soon, just wanted to show some willing after bailing out a few time recently.

I'm not sure if I still hold data that isn't in the new map or not, but let me know and I can share what I have.

Enjoy Poland Nan, we are heading there in a couple of weeks so I may tap you up for some tips.

Author Colvin
Registered
#49 | Posted: 3 Oct 2016 19:45 
meltwaterfalls:
I have updated the map on the main page

Thanks, meltwaterfalls! I refreshed the map when I got home today, and I saw the 2016 sites are now on there. They look great -- thanks for putting them up!

Author elsslots
Admin
#50 | Posted: 4 Oct 2016 00:09 | Edited by: elsslots 
Solivagant:
Ah well – that provided a couple of hours of interesting investigation!

I hoped so! I've added them already.
Actually, there are 2 more locations missing:
- 139-002 Saraikala, prehistoric mound Punjab, Pakistan
- 139-007 Khader Mohra (Akhuri) Punjab, Pakistan
Those are really the final ones...

Author Solivagant
Registered
#51 | Posted: 4 Oct 2016 02:53 | Edited by: Solivagant 
elsslots:
Actually, there are 2 more locations missing:

I don't know how many "Locations" are still "missing" their coordinates across all WHS but I coincidentally came across another one yesterday ( Cuba: Dos Palmas Contramaestre Archaeological Landscape of the First Coffee Plantations)..

Is it possible (not whilst you are "on the road" of course!) to highlight those whose coordinates are missing/all zeros by not showing the "location pointer" for them? That would have the advantage of
a, Highlighting those needing "action"
b. Avoiding "wasted" clicks to simply be given a map of the World

If the number missing is fairly small it might (instead/also?) be worth having a "list"of them so those with time on their hands or a particular interest in one or other site could know about them and "do the necessary".

Back to the 2 "missing" Taxila Locations -
- 139-002 Saraikala, prehistoric mound Punjab, Pakistan
Wiki – Saraikala "is an archaeological site 3 km southwest of Taxila that has the earliest occupation, and preserves Neolithic remains going back to 3360 BC. It also has Early Harappan remains of 2900-2600 BC. A later settlement in this area has parallels with Hathial in the Taxila area"
Wikivoyage "Sarai Kala (near railway station). The mound of Sarai Kala has evidence of the earliest prehistoric settlement, in the Mesolithic period, and also later Bronze age and Iron age settlements. It preserves Neolithic remains going back to 3360 BC and Early Harappan remains of 2900-2600 BC."
But neitherof these really helped and I eventually found it under "Sarai Khola". This article describes its very bad condition - http://www.dawn.com/news/593783/sarai-khola-a-forgotten-site-in-taxila-valley
and the location as "half a kilometre in the west of Kala Nala bridge on the G.T. Road and four km in the south-west of Taxila Museum"
139-002 33.734060,72.800236

139-007 Khader Mohra (Akhuri) Punjab, Pakistan
Marshall - "among the many ancient Buddhist ruins that may be seen crowning the bare knolls.... Four are specially conspicuous. They are situated a little to the SE of the Dharmarajika where they form, roughly a square of 400-500yds along each side. On the map they are distinguished by the letters A,B,C and D, the last, which is known locally as Khader Mohra being at the NW corner.... The Site B is also known as Akhauri"
I haven't been able to find anything more detailed than this so have chosen a spot around 400m SE of Dharmarajika on Google Sat view which looks "possible!
139-007 33.740564,72.846738

Author nfmungard
Registered
#52 | Posted: 4 Oct 2016 05:39 
Solivagant
Problem is worse. UNESCO doesnt always show all locations and that's where Ian got the initial data. E.g Grand Canal. Best would be to do a per country review.

Author Solivagant
Registered
#53 | Posted: 4 Oct 2016 06:37 | Edited by: Solivagant 
nfmungard:
Best would be to do a per country review.

But at least we have the data to hand easily to identify those locations which we DO know about and which DON'T have any coordinates.
I also wonder whether it isn't going to be perfectly "legitimate" to leave some Locations without coorddnates rather than "guess" them and to identify those? I am not totally happy about my "guess" on "139-016 Lalchak Mounds"
A country by country check for all sites to identify which don't have all their locations identified by UNESCO seems a much bigger and longer exercise since it requires going back to the Nomination Files. We also already have a Connection for "Incorrect Number of UNESCO locations" ( http://www.worldheritagesite.org/tags/tag.php?id=1159 ) and I suspect many of these have already been done - I remember spending a long afternoon and evening on the locations for the Asante Traditional Buildings.
Grand Canal should also be added to this Connection which can then act as a "placer" for sites with this problem??

Author elsslots
Admin
#54 | Posted: 4 Oct 2016 22:40 
Solivagant:
a, Highlighting those needing "action"

I just had a quick look, and there are 270 locations still without coordinates. Not as bad as I would have thought.
Most are Watchtowers from the Roman Limes and Mediterranean Rock Art. Maybe we could skip those, and that I make a list of the other remaining ones?

And then there are some sites which only have data for the main location (such as the Grand Canal). I can't see how many of these there are, but my guess is that there won't be many. The Grand Canal's coordinates are present on the Unesco website, so I'll add these in the next couple of days.

Author meltwaterfalls
Registered
#55 | Posted: 5 Oct 2016 05:15 
I nterms of missing data for Frontiers of the Roman Empire, Colvin provided me with the co-ordinates for the Antonine Wall, which I'm feeding into the other map but here they are if it fills in a few of those gaps. Thanks Colvin.
From Colvin:
Serial ID No.,Name,Center Point (Latitude),Center Point (Longitude)
430Ter-001,Carriden,56.0084978,-3.5541722
430Ter-002,Muirhouses Camp,56.0090981,-3.5766353
430Ter-003,Bridgeness - Kinneil,56.0163014,-3.5835386
430Ter-004,Kinglass Park Camp,56.0118797,-3.5989008
430Ter-005,Kinneil-Nether,56.0005803,-3.6643747
430Ter-006,Nether Kinneil-M9,55.9956411,-3.7113992
430Ter-007,Inveravon Camps 2&3,55.9959742,-3.66477
430Ter-008,Polmonthill Camp,55.9913144,-3.6869347
430Ter-009,Little Kerse Camp,55.9904917,-3.6931997
430Ter-010,M9-Callendar Park,55.9963447,-3.7578347
430Ter-011,Military Way, Laurieston,55.8542775,-3.7350269
430Ter-012,Callender Park East,55.5127333,-3.7358072
430Ter-013,Callender Park - Westburn Avenue,55.4946564,-3.7429281
430Ter-014,Westburn Avenue - Glenfuir Road,55.8801406,-3.8113283
430Ter-015,Watling Lodge - Castlecary,55.8890983,-3.813345
430Ter-016,Tamfourhill Camp,55.6014986,-3.8127519
430Ter-017,Milnquarter Camp,56.1665464,-3.8908328
430Ter-018,Castlecary - Twechar,55.7254675,-3.9347517
430Ter-019,Twechar Camp,55.5436267,-4.0621417
430Ter-020,Twechar - Harestanes,56.1630308,-4.108105
430Ter-021,Harestanes - Hillhead,55.63262,-4.1144814
430Ter-022,Hillhead - Kirkintilloch,56.1441272,-4.1618086
430Ter-023,Kirkintilloch - Adamslie,55.4795169,-4.1315967
430Ter-024,Adamslie,55.6948444,-4.1544433
430Ter-025,Adamslie - Glasgow Bridge,55.3984733,-4.1398675
430Ter-026,Glasgow Bridge - Cadder,55.6945361,-4.1719322
430Ter-027,Cadder - Wilderness Plantation,55.7837642,-4.2087969
430Ter-028,Wilderness Plantation - Bearsden,55.6216456,-4.2266725
430Ter-029,Balmuildy Camp,55.4775681,-4.2406964
430Ter-030,Bearsden - Old Kilpatrik,55.3687897,-4.2897858
430Ter-031,Old Kilpatrik, A 82-railway,56.1292633,-4.4748114
430Ter-032,Old Kilpatrik fort,55.8598767,-4.4608461
430Ter-033,Old Kilpatrik, River Clyde,55.8239022,-4.4617669


Author elsslots
Admin
#56 | Posted: 5 Oct 2016 18:45 
meltwaterfalls:
Antonine Wall,

These are missing completely, and they also seem not to be included in the count of 414 locations on the Unesco website. There should be 447 then!

Plus there are 163 German ones (included in the 414) without coordinates!

Author GaryArndt
Registered
#57 | Posted: 7 Oct 2016 11:33 
Has anyone considered making this a downloadable .kml file which could be used locally in Google Earth?

Author elsslots
Admin
#58 | Posted: 9 Oct 2016 10:14 
meltwaterfalls:
I nterms of missing data for Frontiers of the Roman Empire, Colvin provided me with the co-ordinates for the Antonine Wall,

I've added them all now, wondering however if the coordinates are right. It doesn't end up as a nice straight line as the Hadrian Wall does.

GaryArndt:
Has anyone considered making this a downloadable .kml file which could be used locally in Google Earth?

I don't know how to do that, but I'll ask nfmungard about it.

Author nfmungard
Registered
#59 | Posted: 9 Oct 2016 13:49 
elsslots:
I don't know how to do that, but I'll ask nfmungard about it.

Not a huge fan of google earth to be honest. It's a nice toy, but not really a tool. Providing the data as xml shouldn't be hard, but to me this is a future enhancement.

Author GaryArndt
Registered
#60 | Posted: 9 Oct 2016 15:48 
I use the UNESCO Google Earth layer all the time.

It uses the exact same satellite image database as Google Maps. What is valuable about it is that you can use it offline.

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